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Post by 70smusicfan on Nov 20, 2012 23:43:17 GMT -5
Watched the PBS American Masters show "Inventing David Geffen" and didn't hear any LR mentions. Saw a couple of glimpses of albums covers and (perhaps) a picture in a collage, but nothing much (understandably concentrated on Laura Nyro, Joni Mitchell, CSNY, Jackson Browne). Guess she didn't make him enough money. Any others see LR?
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Post by erik on Nov 21, 2012 9:55:56 GMT -5
Yes, there were a couple of brief glimpses, but no overt mention of Linda as I think there should have been, since she was the biggest-selling solo artist, in terms of both singles and albums, on Asylum. But then again they seemed to want to emphasize Geffen's discovery of singer/songwriter types at the expense of the whole package.
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Post by the Scribe on Nov 21, 2012 11:23:57 GMT -5
 video.pbs.org/video/2305433189Another reason to be pissed off she didn't even get mentioned in some respect that is important to music. I wonder what she thought of Geffin? While I am a LongIslander myself he comes off as what we called a cityslicker aka pushy New Yorker that few of us liked. I guess everyone hates a shark unless it is their shark. |
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Post by erik on Nov 21, 2012 12:58:09 GMT -5
She might owe a great deal of her career to Geffen getting her onto Asylum the way he did in June 1972, although he may have been pointed her way by Jackson Browne.
I would guess she was more cynical of the way he conducted business behind the scenes, but she was likely protected from too much of Geffen's monkey business by Peter Asher.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 21, 2012 16:08:46 GMT -5
She might owe a great deal of her career to Geffen getting her onto Asylum the way he did in June 1972, although he may have been pointed her way by Jackson Browne. I would guess she was more cynical of the way he conducted business behind the scenes, but she was likely protected from too much of Geffen's monkey business by Peter Asher. Was it Geffen directly who signed Linda to Asylum, or was it another label executive who signed her yet Geffen (who had an ego that was as big as that of Phil Spector's) claimed the credit? From what I have read on other record label executives and their signings over the years, record label executives have fits and intense jealousy whenever one executive signs an artist who goes on to become a big name in the business. Jealousy which led some executives to possibly bad mouth the performers in private and not promote them if and when they somehow succeeded to the head of the label. I always felt Linda's champion(s) at Asylum may not have been Geffen but other executives who were at the label, as Linda was still having hits when Geffen left the label and formed the label bearing his last name. That right there indicated a man with a huge ego, much like the late Don Kirshner who ran a host of record labels, including some he started, the last label also being one to bear his last name. He wanted to people to know he was as much responsible for the success of the artists on his label as what the artists were. In an indirect way, they were although the record labels could've been ggiven other names and people would still have known they were part of it. They had the ego and a great need to be in the same spotlight as their artists, but beyond running a record label (and in Kirshner's case, running publishing companies), they had no great appreciable talent for being in the spotlight. Just oversized egos. |
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Post by erik on Nov 21, 2012 20:02:45 GMT -5
For one thing, I think it was Herb Cohen that had found out about her and, after much haggling, got her and the Stone Poneys signed on to Capitol in 1966. In that sense, it was Cohen, not Geffen, that "discovered" her.
But as I've said often, I don't think any of the money men at the time, not Cohen nor those running Capitol, really knew what kind of a singer they had in Linda, at least not in terms of musical genre, since Linda's style was a cross between 60s folk, honky-tonk C&W, and rock, and not so easily marketable. Only the musicians she worked with ever really got that. John Boylan was really the first producer/manager in her career to really understand what she was about, if her 1972 self-titled album was any indication.
Geffen likely knew about her as far back as 1967, but she probably still flew under his radar until Jackson Browne pointed her out to him. Geffen had signed Jackson, and the Eagles (after they had worked with Linda), to Asylum; and Jackson urged Geffen to sign Linda because of her incredible interpretive gifts, which happened in June 1972. Though she was still contractually obligated to Capitol to provide one more album (which of course turned out to be the album that placed her permanently on the map, Heart Like A Wheel), from that point until the end of 2000, she was on Elektra/Asylum.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 22, 2012 1:55:42 GMT -5
For one thing, I think it was Herb Cohen that had found out about her and, after much haggling, got her and the Stone Poneys signed on to Capitol in 1966. In that sense, it was Cohen, not Geffen, that "discovered" her. But as I've said often, I don't think any of the money men at the time, not Cohen nor those running Capitol, really knew what kind of a singer they had in Linda, at least not in terms of musical genre, since Linda's style was a cross between 60s folk, honky-tonk C&W, and rock, and not so easily marketable. Only the musicians she worked with ever really got that. John Boylan was really the first producer/manager in her career to really understand what she was about, if her 1972 self-titled album was any indication. Geffen likely knew about her as far back as 1967, but she probably still flew under his radar until Jackson Browne pointed her out to him. Geffen had signed Jackson, and the Eagles (after they had worked with Linda), to Asylum; and Jackson urged Geffen to sign Linda because of her incredible interpretive gifts, which happened in June 1972. Though she was still contractually obligated to Capitol to provide one more album (which of course turned out to be the album that placed her permanently on the map, Heart Like A Wheel), from that point until the end of 2000, she was on Elektra/Asylum. Cohen was the one who "discovered" Linda, but I was just thinking I had read that it was Nik Venet who signed her and the Stone Poneys to Capitol and produced them, but once Linda was pushed out as a solo performer and the Stone Poneys were no more, he no longer served in the capacity of producer. Would it have made some difference if he had remained as producer since he was still an executive at the label, or was that an option he didn't have at that point? Maybe there was no one at Capitol who could've been Linda's champion as "Chip" Douglas Farthing Hatlelid, who had produced the Monkees and the Turtles and played on their recordings, was essentially an independent producer. Likewise, Elliot Mazer and John Boylan. I think Capitol had no one at the label who sat down and listened to Linda's recordings and work out the best possible promotion. I could be wrong. But, usually where the promotion and money trail is on a recording, you're likely to find the recording in question will be a hit. Absent the money for promotion, there's not much chance of a hit and sales are likely to be poor at the worst or minimally fair at best. If Jackson Browne is the person mainly responsible for Linda being signed to Asylum, with regard to that signing, I have to wonder if Geffen would've signed Linda without Jackson's support? And maybe the support of the Eagles as well since they were also signed to Asylum and once were Linda's band members. I could see Geffen being hesitant to sign Linda because her single and album sales at Capitol hadn't been that great, plus she was still signed to Capitol. Record companies are extremely notorious for not wanting to take on artists from other labels when the sales are minimal. They have no such qualms when the sales are there but it's usually freeing up the artist or the band from the label they're on as the labels are very resistant to letting go of a successful act. Linda had only been modestly successful for Capitol and one would've thought they would've encouraged her to hit the road rather than taking a chance on one more album. As I've always said, it must've been grating for them to have gotten Linda extremely huge success on "Heart Like a Wheel" and then see Asylum come along and reap the benefits, even though she had signed with Asylum before HLAW had been released and already had one album released by Asylum. |
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Post by erik on Nov 22, 2012 9:54:08 GMT -5
Geffen, once he had been pointed in Linda's direction, was really thinking in terms of her artistic potential back then, not so much whether she was going to be a huge moneymaker (one must also remember that he also signed artists that he knew probably wouldn't be megastars). He knew that she had it in her to become hugely successful, but she was on a label that never quite understood her well enough. I think Capitol really tried to promote her well, but it was a matter of her encompassing three genres at once, and that wasn't a concept they really had a handle on.
He also knew that, because of her lack of consistent chart success, she was insecure, and knew it would be better to have her at Asylum, where she'd be much more at ease around people whom she respected and, perhaps most importantly, respected her.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 22, 2012 14:14:13 GMT -5
Geffen, once he had been pointed in Linda's direction, was really thinking in terms of her artistic potential back then, not so much whether she was going to be a huge moneymaker (one must also remember that he also signed artists that he knew probably wouldn't be megastars). He knew that she had it in her to become hugely successful, but she was on a label that never quite understood her well enough. I think Capitol really tried to promote her well, but it was a matter of her encompassing three genres at once, and that wasn't a concept they really had a handle on.
Geffen may have been thinking of Linda in terms of artistic potential, regradless of whether she was going to be a moneymaker, yet at the same time, I couldn't picture him or any record company executive running a big (though not necessarily major) record label and being concerned only with the artistic concerns and not the financial concerns. And Asylum was big business. It wasn't like the thousands of small, local labels and artist vanity labels that existed and that would only be around for a few years. If making money and putting pressure on the artists signed to Asylum to come up with hits wasn't part of Geffen's equation for Asylum, the label would've ceased to exist. That's not to say he couldn't have cared about an artist's potential but I think it was obvious he planned on Asylum being a big time operation and I think he was enough of a barracuda that he might have tolerated an artist being a failure only for a short time before dropping them from the label.
He also knew that, because of her lack of consistent chart success, she was insecure, and knew it would be better to have her at Asylum, where she'd be much more at ease around people whom she respected and, perhaps most importantly, respected her.
I think Linda's lack of consistent chart success owed as much to the kind of material she was recording as the lack of promotion she was getting from Capitol. Linda needed more Different Drums and Long Long Times and less of a reliance on older tunes like Lovesick Blues. But, in a sense, that was where Capitol or her manager(s) failed her because it used to be the job of a record company's A&R department or an artist's manager to obtain demos from songwriters for singers (who didn't write or didn't write enough) and supply songs for the artist to consider recording at their recording session. When artists started writing their own songs or demanding artistic freedom (also known as the artist demanding the right to record what he or she or they wanted with no interference from the record company), I think the record companies took a hands off approach to their artists by letting the artists make the decisions. I always thought that was something the record companies didn't need to do, that there was still a middle course they could've taken - which would've been offering to obtain demos for the artists with no pressure to record a particular song. Even if they hadn't done that, an artist's manager could've done that or should've done it. But, it was like the record companies and management put all of the pressure on the artist in coming up with the hits. What was remarkable was most were able to do just that, though there were some who had lousy luck when it came to getting a hit.
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Post by erik on Nov 22, 2012 21:33:49 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
One must keep in mind that the minor hits she had between "Long Long Time" and her breakout success with "You're No Good" at the end of 1974 were, more or less, contemporary songs: "She's A Very Lovely Woman" (a cover of a 1967 hit by the Merry-Go-Round); "Rock Me On The Water" (Jackson Browne); "Love Has No Pride" (written by Eric Kaz and Libby Titus). "Silver Threads And Golden Needles", of course, was a remake of a remake (she had recorded this classic country hit first in 1969, but was so dissatisfied with that version that she did it a second time in 1973, and thus got her first C&W hit [#67 pop/#20 C&W in early 1974]). Knowing what is or is not a hit is, I think, the ultimate crap shoot, because neither the label nor the artist knows what the music public wants exactly at a particular time and place.
And in the end, of course, Linda wasn't just a hit-making singles machine, but a true album artist, likely the first really big female album artist in rock and roll history.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 23, 2012 2:31:05 GMT -5
One must keep in mind that the minor hits she had between "Long Long Time" and her breakout success with "You're No Good" at the end of 1974 were, more or less, contemporary songs: "She's A Very Lovely Woman" (a cover of a 1967 hit by the Merry-Go-Round); "Rock Me On The Water" (Jackson Browne); "Love Has No Pride" (written by Eric Kaz and Libby Titus). "Silver Threads And Golden Needles", of course, was a remake of a remake (she had recorded this classic country hit first in 1969, but was so dissatisfied with that version that she did it a second time in 1973, and thus got her first C&W hit [#67 pop/#20 C&W in early 1974]). Knowing what is or is not a hit is, I think, the ultimate crap shoot, because neither the label nor the artist knows what the music public wants exactly at a particular time and place.
It's a crap shoot for sure. On (She's a) Very Lovely Woman, I recall Linda appeared on quite a few tv shows performing the song and I'm surprised me at how poorly the song did in the charts. Maybe it just wasn't commercial enough? As for Rock Me on the Water, I don't recall seeing Linda appearing on tv performing the song and I recall the radio stations also were playing Jackson Browne's own version of his song. Could Linda'sversion have been done in in the charts by Browne's own version? I recall reading that when there are two (or more) competing versions of the same song being played on the radio, it's possible one version will ultimately be ignored. Jackson's version got quite a lot of airplay and it wasn't much of a hit for him either but he still had Doctor My Eyes going for him at the time.
I was kind of surprised when Linda's remake of her remake of Silver Threads and Golden Needles did better than expected. And which was remarkable because the pop-rock-Top 40 radio stations I listened to were playing Desperado and Colorado. In fact, I thought Asylum was going to release Colorado as a single. It was getting more airplay than STAGN and maybe in this instance, it was a case of the record company picking the wrong tune to be a single. In fact, for every radio station that played STAGN, there were at least ten playing Colorado at the same time. Keep in mind that was during the time when AM Top 40 was still breathing but headed towards radio talk show life support and FM radio stations were starting to pop up everywhere.
And in the end, of course, Linda wasn't just a hit-making singles machine, but a true album artist, likely the first really big female album artist in rock and roll history.
Linda's big album success came during the time I think when the industry was in a transistioning stage from being dominated by the singles to being an album-dominated industry. Part of the reason for that I think had to do with the record company overkill of releasing three singles from each album People got tired of buying three singles usually compromising six songs from the same album, paying $1.29 (plus tax) per single and $7.98 (plus tax) per album. Something had to give. Some artists released non-album B-sides as an enticement but most non-album B-sides were usually limited to one single. And then there was the by-then mandatory picture sleeve for the single. A picture sleeve and non-album B-side helped sales of the singles but the picture sleeves added an expense and ate away at the profits, so the record company didn't go along with every 45 having a picture sleeve. So people ending up buying more albums than singles but I thought Linda still did all right with the singles she did release.
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Post by erik on Nov 23, 2012 9:56:02 GMT -5
One of the ways in which I think the singles releases benefited Linda was the fact that they were a window to the complete albums themselves, and not just made-to-order radio hits.
By any standard, "She's A Very Lovely Woman" should have been a much bigger hit than it was (#70 pop; #17 Adult Contemporary), because it was so straight-ahead pop/rock. One of the reasons why I think it wasn't is because it was never on an actual studio album release. Linda had recorded that song, and evidently a lot of others, down at Muscle Shoals in the summer of 1970, so what probably should have happened was an album that was C&W-influenced soul. None was forthcoming, though; and the only other song to come from those sessions was Eric Kaz's "I Won't Be Hangin' 'Round", which did end up on Linda Ronstadt. But with respect to "She's A Very Lovely Woman", I think all of us are grateful to the Australian import label Raven, which, when they reissued Hand Sown, Home Grown and Silk Purse on one CD in late 2009, decided to include that song as a bonus track.
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Post by lifan1964 on Nov 23, 2012 11:12:57 GMT -5
Watched the program hoping to hear about LR. Nothing. No mention of LR from Don henley, Glen Frey, Jackson Brown, or Neil Young. Makes me wonder if LR had some kind of gag order granted so that she will be able to tell her own story in her own words via the autobiography. That egomaniac Geffen shouldn't take credit for "discovering LR anyway. She would have been a major superstar eventually. She just needed the right producer, collaborator, and manager. It all came together for her, but I don't think Geffen had that much to do with it .Thank goodness for the Beatles esp. Paul McCartney for dating Jane Asher all those years. David Geffen may be rich and famous, but is a very uninspiring role model. If that's what it takes to be somebody in Hollywood I'll pass. I was once at his house at the Pines on Long Island many years ago 1983, hoping to see Cher, as he was promising she would show up. Never saw her. Oh well wasn't much of a Cher fan.
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Post by 70smusicfan on Nov 23, 2012 13:33:16 GMT -5
Interesting the Glen Frey got credit for putting together the Eagles. Anyway, since we've gotten slightly off topic talking about LR managers (Herb Cohen & John Boylan mentioned above), quick question. There was (is) an interview snippet with LR on the original parent site (ronstadt-linda.com) about LR singing with Hearts & Flowers long before Country-Rock was thought to have been created where LR states: "My manager would say "Don't be stupid (about singing country), You're too pop for country and too country for pop and you'll end up going nowhere." Since she guests on H&F's "Road to Nowhere" released about 1967, would have to assume it would be her manager at that time.
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Post by erik on Nov 23, 2012 14:39:56 GMT -5
In terms of the debate of when country-rock as a music form was "created", meaning essentially the style of rock that incorporates straight-ahead country music instrumentation (steel guitar; mandolin; banjo, etc.) and vocal harmonies, there really isn't any date or year set in stone like there is on, say, when the British Invasion started.
For certain, though, the epicenter of the country-rock movement was in Southern California, and it was the result of a collision of various forms: the honky-tonk of the Bakersfield Sound (Buck Owens; Merle Haggard); the 1960s folk revival that led to bluegrass being picked up by younger musicians (Chris Hillman; Bernie Leadon); and really a reaction against the both excesses of psychedelic acid rock, and the commercialization and right-wing attitudes of what Nashville was putting out.
There is also, I might add, no lynchpin, no single figure for the country-rock movement; even Gram Parsons, however much he may be lionized nowadays, wasn't by any means the only guy trying to mix rock and country together at that time. It was a big, gigantic movement of many different groups, group configurations, approaches, and such, whether it was Poco, the Byrds, the Flying Burrito Brothers, Mike Nesmith's post-Monkees work, or Rick Nelson and his Stone Canyon Band, finally culminating in what Linda and the Eagles did.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 23, 2012 14:56:54 GMT -5
One of the ways in which I think the singles releases benefited Linda was the fact that they were a window to the complete albums themselves, and not just made-to-order radio hits.
I looked at it that way myself, although I also saw the other side of the argument and agreed with people who were complaining about why buy the singles when you paid six to seven bucks for the album and got all the songs that were on the singles? Certain artists (including Elvis and the Beatles) released songs on 45s only, keeping them off the albums, but the record companies in the late 70s had started stipulating every album had to have three hit singles on them. It was absolutely nuts and one can't begin to talk about the pressure on the artists to come up with three hits per album.
By any standard, "She's A Very Lovely Woman" should have been a much bigger hit than it was (#70 pop; #17 Adult Contemporary), because it was so straight-ahead pop/rock. One of the reasons why I think it wasn't is because it was never on an actual studio album release. Linda had recorded that song, and evidently a lot of others, down at Muscle Shoals in the summer of 1970, so what probably should have happened was an album that was C&W-influenced soul. None was forthcoming, though; and the only other song to come from those sessions was Eric Kaz's "I Won't Be Hangin' 'Round", which did end up on Linda Ronstadt. But with respect to "She's A Very Lovely Woman", I think all of us are grateful to the Australian import label Raven, which, when they reissued Hand Sown, Home Grown and Silk Purse on one CD in late 2009, decided to include that song as a bonus track.
It's possible (She'a a) Very Lovely Woman wasn't a big hit because it wasn't on an album but again that was back in the day when non-album singles were still being released and which would sometimes do well without the benefit of being on an album. But, it was also frustrating because when you recall or listen to a lot of the music from that same time, there was no reason why it shouldn't have had a better chart showing. And I was never sure how Billboard differentiated an Adult Contemporary radio station from a Top 40 radio station as I rarely heard any radio station refer to themselves as Adult Contemporary. They played the same songs that were played on the Top 40, so what was the difference? But, Linda had the same trouble that Elvis had on some of his 45s - songs that should've done better than what they did, but the difference was some of Elvis's poorer-chart showing 45s (like I'm Leavin') were still million sellers, which exposed a flaw in the way Billboard tabulated the sales. Raven did a good job by including Very Lovely Woman on their Hand Sown Home GRown/Silk Purse reissue, but pity they still missed including Carnival Bear on the Stone Poneys reissue. Now, if we could just get Capitol to reissue her albums with those songs or issue an album's worth of her unreleased songs!
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Post by Partridge on Nov 23, 2012 18:27:41 GMT -5
Doesn't anyone have any love for David Geffen. He did sign Linda to his label. The label did have her first gold album and greatly increased her career trajectory. She got much more airplay from Don't Cry Now than I had heard from previous albums.
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Post by erik on Nov 23, 2012 18:40:34 GMT -5
I think the reason folks here are hostile to Geffen is because of the way he conducted business after he became the biggest thing in the record industry since sliced bread in the early 70s. For a lot of observers, Geffen, while he may have started out being his label roster's best friend, soon became a man far less interested in artistic credibility than he was in making millions. A cynical observation, to be sure, but still....
But yes, his signing of Linda led to bigger and better things for her, even if she too had her doubts about his business conduct.
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Post by lifan1964 on Nov 24, 2012 0:27:06 GMT -5
This makes me wonder why Bonnie Raitt let her career languish so long with the Warnerlabel. After they finally dumped her, she signed with Capitol, hired Don Was, and VOILA! she became a superstar. Does anyone here know why LR and Raitt never worked together? Aside from the Lowell George and Nicolette Larson tributes there was nothing. Ms. Raitt could have benefitted quite alot by singing backup on a couple of LR cuts.
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Post by the Scribe on Nov 24, 2012 1:16:02 GMT -5
One thing that helped Linda and her peers regarding album sales was the transition from AM Radio to FM Radio. If I remember correctly it was becoming a big thing and they often favored album cuts, mini-concerts, bootlegs.... all the kind of stuff you never heard on AM radio.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 24, 2012 1:53:27 GMT -5
Doesn't anyone have any love for David Geffen. He did sign Linda to his label. The label did have her first gold album and greatly increased her career trajectory. She got much more airplay from Don't Cry Now than I had heard from previous albums. I've never much cared for Geffen even though he signed Linda to Asylum. That dislike goes a long way back, all the way back to the 70s. I thought he always came across as arrogant and a bit of an a**. Maybe not a record executive who thought he was a star like the late Don Kirshner or Clive Davis. Maybe my impression of him is all wrong but he just didn't come across as very likeable. Regarding Linda's first gold record, I just took a look at the RIAA's website and according to their website, Linda's first gold album was Heart Like a Wheel, which was of course on Capitol, not Asylum. There is no gold or platinum certification for Linda's first album on Asylum, Don't Cry Now, although it probably meets the gold qualification. Asylum, however. has just never presented a claim for the album. And as the auditing process for gold or platinum certification is rather costly and Linda's association with Asylum is long over, that label is unlikely to put in a claim. I was shocked because I thought DCN had been certified as a gold album but after HLAW, but it wasn't credited by the RIAA as one of Linda's gold albums at all. |
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Post by the Scribe on Nov 25, 2012 1:06:48 GMT -5
I think she has sold more records than we will ever know.
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Post by Partridge on Nov 25, 2012 13:25:45 GMT -5
If Don't Cry Now is not listed on the RIAA database, it is probably a mistake. I am sure it used to be listed there. All the Billboard chart data books have shown it as a gold album, and John Boylan's website lists it as platinum.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 25, 2012 15:04:21 GMT -5
If Don't Cry Now is not listed on the RIAA database, it is probably a mistake. I am sure it used to be listed there. All the Billboard chart data books have shown it as a gold album, and John Boylan's website lists it as platinum. The RIAA's database is difficult when it comes to getting artist information, and I've sometimes wondered about the reliability of the info on the website. It used to be a whole lot easier, but when I finally got Linda's information to pull up, I was very surprised that Don't Cry Now was not among the gold and platinum as I thought it had met the gold plateau for sure, if not the platinum. One needs to remember though that the various record awards that can be hanging on an artist's or manager's wall may be in-house awards and not official recognition from the RIAA. Long before the RIAA was bestowing gold records to artists, awarding a gold record was a standard practice of the record companies, and they were still doing it after the RIAA began certifying and awarding gold records. And who's to say the record companies couldn't award their own platinum award. But, as all this talk about gold records related to Don't Cry Now, I was thinking the album was awarded a gold record but was thinking that award came after Heart Like a Wheel. The RIAA's websites lists the date an album was awarded a gold, platinum or diamond (for ten million copies sold) record and I wanted to verify that DCN was certified gold after HLAW. I thought DCN was certified gold circa 1976 but again, no info on the RIAA website to show it as gold or greater. |
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Post by erik on Nov 25, 2012 20:26:21 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
But, as all this talk about gold records related to Don't Cry Now, I was thinking the album was awarded a gold record but was thinking that award came after Heart Like a Wheel.
I too think the Gold record award for Don't Cry Now came following the Platinum success of Heart Like A Wheel, because the latter's success did boost sales of its predecessor. Don't Cry Now hit #45 on the Billboard Top 200 Album Chart, which made it unquestionably Linda's most commercially successful album up to that time (1974), and then of course Heart Like A Wheel went all the way to #1.
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