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Post by rick on Dec 7, 2011 12:26:48 GMT -5
artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-inducts-guns-n-roses-red-hot-chili-peppers-and-the-beastie-boys/?ref=musicThe New York Times December 7, 2011 Rock Hall Welcomes Guns N’ Roses, Red Hot Chili Peppers and the Beastie Boys By JAMES C. MCKINLEY JR. Three American groups that helped to shape pop music in the 1980s and early ’90s — Guns N’ Roses, Red Hot Chili Peppers and the Beastie Boys – will be inducted into The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in the spring, the Hall was to announce Wednesday. They will join fellow inductees Donovan, the British folksinger; Laura Nyro, the Bronx-born singer-songwriter who died in 1997; and the Small Faces, a British invasion group which later changed its name to the Faces when Rod Stewart joined. All were influential figures in the ’60s and ’70s. The voters – a group of 500 critics, musicians and industry professionals – also decided to honor Freddie King, the Texas blues guitarist who inspired a generation of rock and blues guitarists, among them Eric Clapton, Carlos Santana and Jeff Beck. Mr. King died in 1976. Three people whose contributions to rock were made the sound booth as producers and engineers will also receive awards for musical excellence: Cosimo Matassa, who was the owner of the J&M Recording Studio in New Orleans where Fats Domino and Little Richard recorded; Tom Dowd, a former scientist who was an innovative engineer and producer at Atlantic records and who worked with Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin; and Glyn Johns, the celebrated British producer who worked with the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and the Clash. As always, the list of people who did not get in was almost as interesting as the roster of those who did. The voters passed over Eric B. & Rakim, another important rap group from the ’80s. They also turned down the Cure, Heart, and Joan Jett and the Blackhearts. The decision to include Guns N’ Roses produced little surprise. The Los Angeles hard rock band brought a muscular and raw sound back to the charges in the late ’80s and laid the groundwork for the grunge movement. The Red Hot Chili Pepper, also from Los Angeles, were one of the first bands to fuse metal with rap in the early ’90s, and have remained mercurial rock innovators over eleven albums. The Beastie Boys, white rappers from New York who mixed hard rock motifs with witty rhymes, made hip-hop’s first number one album, “Licensed to Ill” in 1986. Artists become eligible for the hall 25 years after their debut album or single. A ceremony and concert to honor the inductees will take place at on April 14 at the Cleveland Convention Center in Ohio.
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Post by erik on Dec 7, 2011 13:29:23 GMT -5
Once again, Jann Wenner's little exclusive male testosterone club has shafted Linda...and Pat Benatar, Stevie Nicks (as a soloist); and now even Heart, which was considered, was shot down, probably at the last moment. And for who?! The Beastie Boys?! Guns N Roses?!
Typical Jann Wenner horses***!
Even Laura Nyro's deserved induction is bittersweet, because it comes 15 years too late for her. I mean, really, when you come right down to it, the year-in, year-out ignorance of this largely male body of "historians" of the role of Linda and other women in rock and roll is nothing short of evil and venal.
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Post by Dianna on Dec 7, 2011 14:02:51 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with The Beastie Boys or GnR . It is the Rock and Roll Hall of fame and both groups did change the course of rock music or had a heavy influence IMO.. regardless if their music is your cup of tea or not, I will always give credit when I feel credit is due even when I don;t subscribe to their "brand" I do have a problem with the constant dismissal of LR and even Benatar, Nicks and Heart. A shame.
It irks me these women are absent from the Hall. That said, most sang original songs or either wrote or co wrote their hits. I'm afraid this is where I feel Linda has a huge disadvantage. Most of her hits were covers, granted better covers than even the originals IMO. but that's not gonna help her getting into the RRHOF.
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Post by rick on Dec 7, 2011 14:56:42 GMT -5
That said, most sang original songs or either wrote or co wrote their hits. I'm afraid this is where I feel Linda has a huge disadvantage. Most of her hits were covers, granted better covers than even the originals IMO. but that's not gonna help her getting into the RRHOF. Dianna, Sorry if I don't recall you from the other board. If you are a new member here, then welcome. As for Linda not writing her own material (and that is not completely true), then what about The Supremes? Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard and Cindy Birdsong are not known as songwriters. In going over the list on the RRHOF website, the same could be said for Aretha Franklin, the Four Tops, the Ronettes, Dusty Springfield, the Righteous Brothers, and on and on. It is not the Songwriters Hall of Fame. |
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Post by the Scribe on Dec 7, 2011 16:18:11 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with The Beastie Boys or GnR . It is the Rock and Roll Hall of fame and both groups did change the course of rock music or had a heavy influence IMO.. regardless if their music is your cup of tea or not, I will always give credit when I feel credit is due even when I don;t subscribe to their "brand" I do have a problem with the constant dismissal of LR and even Benatar, Nicks and Heart. A shame. It irks me these women are absent from the Hall. That said, most sang original songs or either wrote or co wrote their hits. I'm afraid this is where I feel Linda has a huge disadvantage. Most of her hits were covers, granted better covers than even the originals IMO. but that's not gonna help her getting into the RRHOF. Being a songwriter is NOT a requirement for induction into the Rock Hall of Fame no matter the propaganda others try to push. That being said, many of Linda's so called covers were first charted in the Top 100 by Linda. In my opinion those should be considered originals as the term "covers" doesn't quite cut it for me. (we need to come up with a snappy and acceptable term for 1st Charted) The problem with the Hall is the nominating committee as the whole thing is political, cronyistic, miscogynistic and controlled by Jann Wenner who has a problem tripping over his own head. Rewriting music history ain't going to work because facts are facts. Linda more than qualifies and is more worthy than most to be there. Linda Ronstadt will NOT be denied (if any of us have something to say and do about it). |
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Post by Partridge on Dec 7, 2011 17:38:37 GMT -5
Covers!
Many of these songs I did not even know were remakes when I first heard them. If I had ever heard When Will I Be Loved by the Everly Brothers or Blue Bayou by Roy Orbison they did not make a lasting impression. And many songs that people refer to as covers (Heart Like a Wheel, Faithless Love) were actually the original recordings. Just because the songwriter recorded them later on does not convert Linda's to cover versions.
I was familiar with You're No Good because I liked the Betty Everett version, which was itself a cover version-- Linda's was not actually a cover; it was a remake.
You would be surprised at all the artists who do not get criticized for their remakes because most people don't even know the originals.
Hound Dog- Elvis ( I actually like the original by Big Mama Thornton better).
Are You Lonesome Tonight- Elvis (I'd much rather hear his than the original by Al Jolson)
The Tide is High- Blondie
Louie Louie- the Kingsmen
Smooth Criminal- Michael Jackson
Respect- Aretha Franklin (she's done a lot of covers and remakes)
The Crying Game- Boy George (I remember this by Brenda Lee, but hers was still not the original.)
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Post by Dianna on Dec 7, 2011 17:43:19 GMT -5
That said, most sang original songs or either wrote or co wrote their hits. I'm afraid this is where I feel Linda has a huge disadvantage. Most of her hits were covers, granted better covers than even the originals IMO. but that's not gonna help her getting into the RRHOF. Dianna, Sorry if I don't recall you from the other board. If you are a new member here, then welcome. As for Linda not writing her own material (and that is not completely true), then what about The Supremes? Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard and Cindy Birdsong are not known as songwriters. In going over the list on the RRHOF website, the same could be said for Aretha Franklin, the Four Tops, the Ronettes, Dusty Springfield, the Righteous Brothers, and on and on. It is not the Songwriters Hall of Fame. Lucy from the other forum (beloved pets name) I used my actual name this time. sorry.. I signed up fast and out of habit used my actual name and didn't bother changing it. sorry for confusion anyway, but the other artists you mentioned did not have a catalog of mostly hits that charted mainstream previously. Linda did. and I will say IMO her versions were superior than the originals. I;m not bashing her either, it's the only logical conclusion I can think of. When Aretha sang respect, even tho she didn't write the song, we only knew her mainstream version of oit. Getting back to Linda and her exclusion,other than bad blood btwn her (but that would be childish) and The Powers that be , why else? I don't think I buy into the misogynist conspiracy. There are other strong women in the RRHOF. Madonna would have been a prime and perfect target for exclusion had that been the case. So how else would you explain Linda's exclusion? |
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Post by the Scribe on Dec 7, 2011 18:38:24 GMT -5
Aretha did write THINK but not sure of any others.
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Post by erik on Dec 7, 2011 19:44:39 GMT -5
Quote by dianna:
If you throw out the disdain obviously felt by her having recorded four albums of American standards, and three all-Spanish albums, I think the only logical reason might be that, while a lot of the women in there have a background in the R&B/gospel/blues side of rock and roll, Linda's background is in the country-and-western side of it. And for whatever reason, even with the presence of Johnny Cash in the RRHOF, I think that country music has been treated as something of a bastard stepchild by the RRHOF Powers That Be (Wenner; Marsh, et. al.).
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Post by Dianna on Dec 7, 2011 22:42:37 GMT -5
Quote by dianna: If you throw out the disdain obviously felt by her having recorded four albums of American standards, and three all-Spanish albums, I think the only logical reason might be that, while a lot of the women in there have a background in the R&B/gospel/blues side of rock and roll, Linda's background is in the country-and-western side of it. And for whatever reason, even with the presence of Johnny Cash in the RRHOF, I think that country music has been treated as something of a bastard stepchild by the RRHOF Powers That Be (Wenner; Marsh, et. al.). perhaps but Wanda Jackson is there. Chaka Kahn who is RnB was also a consideration this time but no go. I don't know if there is any genre leaning bias, besides Linda from her hey day was more country rock like the Eagles. I think they view Linda as a very good interpreter of song and a good singer, and that's it. Which irritates the hell out of me. |
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Post by erik on Dec 7, 2011 22:49:10 GMT -5
Wanda is there, but only really as an early influence (primarily because she was the first white female rocker to be judged as the fairer sex's equivalent of Elvis, a claim that has more than a little merit to it [IMHO]), and with a great deal of support from people like Elvis Costello and Lucinda Williams leading the way.
I still stand by my theory that Linda's country (as opposed to R&B) background is as much a reason/excuse the RRHOF "historians" use for locking her out of their elitist club.
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Post by Partridge on Dec 7, 2011 22:51:47 GMT -5
Wanda Jackson should have been inducted earlier. They didn't even induct her as a performer but as an early influence or some other appellation they use-- not one of the main inductees. And one reason she got in was because of intense lobbying by Linda enemy #2 Elvis Costello. Really Wanda did a few rock and roll songs but her contributions to rock are far far less than Linda's and her influence no more important than Linda's. I used to think I was her only fan. I think the Hall of Fame likes to award the occasional obscure artist, to rewrite them into history.
There were even some that did not want to induct Brenda Lee- Linda enemy #3 Robert Hilburn did not want to induct Brenda. They don't mind inducting men who are not ROCK, but they label the female singers as "pop" singers.
Getting into the Hall of Fame has become more of a PR battle these days. You need management/ record labels/ board members lobbying for you. Linda never lobbies for herself. She has barely done any publicity for 15 years, other than making political statements that might get reported in the news.
Linda should have been included the same year the Eagles were inducted. But you know my mantra: F the R&RHoF.
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Post by profstadt on Dec 8, 2011 1:36:55 GMT -5
Getting into the Hall of Fame has become more of a PR battle these days. You need management/ record labels/ board members lobbying for you. Linda never lobbies for herself. She has barely done any publicity for 15 years, other than making political statements that might get reported in the news. Linda should have been included the same year the Eagles were inducted. But you know my mantra: F the R&RHoF. Yes, she definitely should have been inducted in the same year as the Eagles (1998). But, perhaps your explanation is closest to the truth. Certainly, those of you who are closer to the industry are in the best position to make this call. But I would say that she not only "has barely done any publicity for 15 years, other than making political statements that might get reported in the news," but also she has often spoken disdainfully of the rock part of her career over these past 15 years. IMO, that should be irrelevant, but if the process is so politicized, that certainly can't help her cause. Like Diana, I can't buy the misogynist conspiracy. |
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Post by Richard W on Dec 8, 2011 9:22:33 GMT -5
And yet, for all this disdain, she continued to make rock/country-rock albums right through the final phase of her career.
We all know that Linda is rarely satisfied with anything she's recorded, even claiming to never listen to an album once it's finished. So I suppose her disdain isn't for rock music itself (why else would she keep making it?) but her own rock music, her own performance choices.
Any artist is entitled to dismiss their own art. Even Meryl Streep can't bear to watch herself on screen.
As far as I'm concerned, that Popshifter article exactly explicates the reasons why Linda should be in the RRHoF.
As for why she isn't, we can consider (and have) all the lame, facile reasons, but I think we all know what it comes down to: an unbridled bias against her by the crowned heads of the nominating committee, led by you-know-who and followed by several others. I mean, when you have a RRHoF member flatly stating that Linda would get in "over my dead body," well, there's not much mystery left.
Furthermore, this whole notion that an artist gains favor from the committee by groveling before it for nomination not only diminishes whatever credible objectivism the RRHoF may have left, but is antithetical to the spirit of the music itself.
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Post by Partridge on Dec 8, 2011 9:27:34 GMT -5
... I mean, when you have a RRHoF member flatly stating that Linda would get in "over my dead body," well, there's not much mystery left. You've given me an idea for a novel. Followed by a screenplay. |
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Post by erik on Dec 8, 2011 10:04:16 GMT -5
Quote by profstadt:
I agree that Linda does not help her cause by disdaining those albums or, in a more indirect way, the fans of those albums. It's something that former Rolling Stone writer and now writer/director Cameron Crowe pointed out when asked that once not long ago about Linda, and he now believes a campaign should start to rectify this: "I think what happens sometimes is that when an artist turns their back and says I’m pulling out of the race, they get forgotten The same thing happened to Laura Nyro. They check out and they don’t spend a lot of time reminding you of the things they’ve done. So let us begin a campaign.."
If you look, however, at the huge numbers of very prominent female solo artists like Linda, or groups like Heart that are led by women, who have made an impact on rock and roll from the beginning, and look at how few of them are actually enshrined in Cleveland, the perception of misogyny, whether actual or imaginary, at the RRHOF is all but impossible to ignore.
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Post by Dianna on Dec 8, 2011 17:03:42 GMT -5
Quote by profstadt: I agree that Linda does not help her cause by disdaining those albums or, in a more indirect way, the fans of those albums. It's something that former Rolling Stone writer and now writer/director Cameron Crowe pointed out when asked that once not long ago about Linda, and he now believes a campaign should start to rectify this: " I think what happens sometimes is that when an artist turns their back and says I’m pulling out of the race, they get forgotten The same thing happened to Laura Nyro. They check out and they don’t spend a lot of time reminding you of the things they’ve done. So let us begin a campaign.." If you look, however, at the huge numbers of very prominent female solo artists like Linda, or groups like Heart that are led by women, who have made an impact on rock and roll from the beginning, and look at how few of them are actually enshrined in Cleveland, the perception of misogyny, whether actual or imaginary, at the RRHOF is all but impossible to ignore. There arn't very many female rock artists or female rock groups not nearly as many as the guys. Then somebody like Madonna, with no waiting period gets in as soon as she was eligible, and I dont consider her music rock either. However, her "I don't give a S***attitude ", is very masculine, edgy and what one would think of in persona when you think of "rock and roll" or what it stands for.. Yet she still remains very over the top fem and flashy.. That;s why I don;t think they are guilty of misogyny here. I actually think that wenner dude would probably bow at her feet or kiss her ring as if she were the pope. ha ha I don't think she'd hesistate in those demands either. I also think another disadvantage of Linda's is that she's too modest and humble of her own talent. She isn't arrogant or obnoxious enough for them. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 18:03:17 GMT -5
[
I also think another disadvantage of Linda's is that she's too modest and humble of her own talent. She isn't arrogant or obnoxious enough for them. [/quote]
You couldn't get much more obnoxious and arrogant than Johnny Rotten and the Sex Pistols and they were inducted.. and he gained my everlasting respect by letting them know what they could do with their award!
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Post by rick on Dec 8, 2011 21:30:26 GMT -5
Speaking of Laura, here in Los Angeles, our local KABC QUOTE entertainment reporter END QUOTE George Pennacchio pronounced her named as "Nye-ro" as if the first syllable rhymed with "dye," or "lie." It makes me sad that someone as talented as Laura was can't even have her name pronounced correctly by someone who purports to cover the business, but fawns endlessly over people like Sherri Shepherd of "The View."
It's taste like that among "the cognoscenti" that keeps Linda out of the Hall.
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Post by erik on Dec 8, 2011 21:51:56 GMT -5
Quote by rick:
Yes, it would have been nice to consult with somebody who's a music buff as to how to pronounce that name. Then again, how many editors check any writer's misspelling of Linda's last name (there's no extra "d" between "Ron" and "stadt") when it has happened, God knows how many times, since 1967?
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Post by sliderocker on Dec 17, 2011 16:34:18 GMT -5
To me, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is just one big joke because those on the nominating committee basically nominate only the artists they happen to like. It doesn't matter that there are many artists and bands that meet their rigid qualifications, if the artist or band doesn't meet a nominating member's personal preference, too bad, no great loss. It should be pointed out there are people within the nominating committe and those who vote on the nominees who don't agree with the nominating members who have a personal prejudice towards certain artists and bands and who feel these individuals should remove themselves from the nominating process. But, when you have someone like Jann Wenner, who was one of the main players involved in putting the hall together and who seems to think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is his personal property, it's a safe bet he's going to do all that he can to keep the artists and bands he doesn't like out of the hall. Maybe Linda and other fan favorites will have a chance once Wenner and his nominating bloc members are long gone from the hall.
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Post by erik on Dec 17, 2011 19:21:29 GMT -5
Certainly there is a lot of cronyism and a huge heaping of bias in the whole process, which is what drives fans of non-inducted artists, including us fans of Linda's, insane. Such hard-rock acts as Kiss (whom Springsteen brown-noser Dave Marsh vows will never get in if he has anything to say about it) and Rush have been given the bum's rush, as have the womenfolk I've mentioned many times before. And they're now inducting rap/hip-hop acts that have virtually no connection to rock and roll other than that they are a part of an ethnic/race segment that gave rise to rock and roll.
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Post by sliderocker on Dec 17, 2011 23:28:46 GMT -5
Certainly there is a lot of cronyism and a huge heaping of bias in the whole process, which is what drives fans of non-inducted artists, including us fans of Linda's, insane. Such hard-rock acts as Kiss (whom Springsteen brown-noser Dave Marsh vows will never get in if he has anything to say about it) and Rush have been given the bum's rush, as have the womenfolk I've mentioned many times before. And they're now inducting rap/hip-hop acts that have virtually no connection to rock and roll other than that they are a part of an ethnic/race segment that gave rise to rock and roll. I forget the name of one of the individuals in the hall who complained about the cronyism but it got to the point that she just didn't want to deal with it anymore and she quit. There was a certain irony in that some time before this person had been mentioned as being part of the cronyism that was keeping certain acts from being nominated and voted on. She basically put the blame at the feet of Jann Wenner and certain music critics with the same mindset. Obviously, she either wasn't part of that clique to begin with or reevaluated her position on the matter and saw how wrong it was. I doubt that Kiss or Rush will ever get a nod because of that mindset and I doubt any of their fans will hold much sway with the nominating committee. I recall that fans of the Moody Blues were gathering signatures on petitions asking the R&RHoF to consider the group for a nomination and vote. The MBs had to ask their fans not to be starting petitions and gathering signatures as the hall basically told the MBs that if the fans didn't stop with their petitions, they would never be considered. Didn't make much of a difference as the hall has never once nominated the MBs. To paraphrase a MB song about their chances for receiving a nod from the hall, never will come the day when that happens. Pity there isn't a competing Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with no personal prejudices and biases allowed.  |
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Post by erik on Dec 18, 2011 0:21:37 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker: I think the lady in question may be Suzan Evans. I guess she developed the kind of conscience that the others seemed to lack, and that was her undoing.  |
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Post by sliderocker on Dec 18, 2011 0:41:13 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker: I think the lady in question may be Suzan Evans. I guess she developed the kind of conscience that the others seemed to lack, and that was her undoing. Suzan Evans...I'm pretty sure she's the one I was thinking of earlier. She had an interview either on tv or in some magazine - maybe Goldmine - about the time of her departure from the R&RHoF in which she spoke about the Wenner bloc on the nominating committee that kept certain acts from receiving a nod. She indicated that there were certain nominating hall members who were sympathetic to all the artists fans want to see in the hall but who ran afoul of the Wenner crowd for one stupid reason or another. And if by chance some of those acts managed to squeeze by Wenner and his cronies, he held enough sway with the non-nominating hall members who voted on the acts to still keep them out. No one should ever have that much power, especially when they want your money. |
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Post by rick on Dec 18, 2011 2:16:12 GMT -5
Speaking of the RRHOF, I came across this boxed set on Amazon - www.amazon.com/Best-Rock-Roll-Hall-Museum/dp/B005LRWT9M/ref=pd_ys_nr_all_52 I would not buy it as I wouldn't want to support the Hall in this way. Some of the tracks sound intriguing, such as Prince playing guitar on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps," but sometimes, you can't go home again. The version of "California Dreamin'" is probably with Denny Doherty towards the end of his life and he's not sounding particularly great. But the pairings on here made me wonder, if, IF, Linda were to ever be admitted in the next few years, with whom might she be paired? Martha Reeves on "Heatwave"? Smokey on "Tracks of My Tears"/"Ooh, Baby Baby"? On the other hand, Linda was with Chuck Berry in "Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll" to do "Back in the U.S.A.," or with The Rolling Stones on "Tumblin' Dice" so she's had benefit of performing with greats without needing any help from the RRHOF. Those other performers chose to sing with Linda because she earned it. |
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Post by erik on Dec 18, 2011 14:27:09 GMT -5
Quote by rick:
Any of those line-ups for Linda would work, provided that she feels her voice can handle it.
And this is the thing that bugs me about the way the RRHOF nominating committee has behaved towards Linda (not to mention all her other fellow female artists). Her peers almost universally have showered her with praise, admiration, and love of her musical and personal integrity; she has influenced four generations worth of female roots-rock singers; she was a pioneer in the country-rock movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s; and without her needing a band in 1971, there would probably not have been the Eagles. Whatever they may think of her excursions into opera, the Great American Songbook, or the Mexican/Latin genre should not matter, period. We're dealing with what she did for rock and roll alone; and on the basis of facts and statistics, Linda should have been inducted with the Eagles in 1998, if not sooner.
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Post by sliderocker on Dec 18, 2011 17:02:15 GMT -5
I agree wholeheartedly with every word written here, though I think Linda should've been inducted long before the Eagles were inducted. And for that matter, Jackson Brown as well. With regards to the opera, the Great American songbook (which Linda was doing long before Rod Stewart and Barry Manilow thought of doing the same) and the Mexican/Latin musical genre, I kind of wonder if these genres are the reasons why the hall snobs won't submit Linda's name for a nomination? As a Goldmine columnist wrote in an online blog about the reasons for Linda to be nominated, one of the hall's phony reasons for an artist to receive a nod is that the artist must grow as an artist. And in what way did Linda not grow as an artist by stepping away from the rock, pop and country material and taking on these other musical genres? Maybe those genres weren't their musical cups of tea but they were bold steps for Linda to be taking. Rod Stewart wouldn't make his first Great American Songbook album until almost two decades after Linda had made her first Great American Songbook album. She was a trailblazer in every sense of the word. Maybe the hall snobs would've much rather have seen her staying in a musical rut, remaking old rock and country hits into new rock and country hits. But, then, they probably would've complained that she was mostly a cover artist and hardly original and therefore not worthy of a nod.
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Post by erik on Dec 18, 2011 19:56:24 GMT -5
Whatever the case may be, through all the litanies of excuses, conspiracies, biases, and such, it is not out of line to suggest that they've treated her like a second-class citizen.
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Post by beatle on Dec 20, 2011 19:45:50 GMT -5
Ah yes the annual snub of Linda by Jan Wenner's fan club...  1) What value does it have? There are so many awards these days 2)If such a Hall of Fame doesn't acknowledge Linda's contribution on a number of levels...what good is it? You can name almost any femaile singer on the planet to list their influences and guess whose name comes up? So it is more a pox on them than her! 3) This all goes back to the days when Wenner began a war with her ..so this is his punishment 4) Don't worry. Linda could care less. She wasn't out there for awards and she presonally didn't keep the ones she got. So having a badge from Jan Wenner's silly Hall of Fame wouldn't mean anything to her. Rich PS...Merry Xmas to all...I haven't chimed in for a while and I hope all is well with everyone |
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