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Post by erik on Oct 31, 2013 9:10:13 GMT -5
Another interesting thing to point out about "Different Drum" is that it had already been played extensively on radio up in San Francisco, according to Linda in her memoir, before it was picked up in Los Angeles. It hadn't been released quite yet as a single because Capitol was apparently skittish at the way it sounded. When KRLA AM 1110, then a Top 40 AM radio station here in L.A., spun it, the song got a huge response from listeners, forcing Capitol to release it as a 45. It was the #1 song on KRLA's playlist (and on "Boss Radio" KHJ AM 930) for three weeks at the end of November and into early December; it soon entered the Top 40, and peaked at #13 on January 27, 1968. And two and a half years later, in June 1970, KRLA was able to force Capitol's hand a second time with "Long Long Time", which again got heavy airplay (despite the label's reluctance to release what they thought was a country ballad). It got up to #25 nationally in the fall of that year.
Oh for the days when individual radio stations, their programmers, and the listeners actually had the power to determine what would be the hits.
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Post by revin2go on Oct 31, 2013 11:15:07 GMT -5
Another interesting thing to point out about "Different Drum" is that it had already been played extensively on radio up in San Francisco, according to Linda in her memoir, before it was picked up in Los Angeles. It hadn't been released quite yet as a single because Capitol was apparently skittish at the way it sounded. When KRLA AM 1110, then a Top 40 AM radio station here in L.A., spun it, the song got a huge response from listeners, forcing Capitol to release it as a 45. It was the #1 song on KRLA's playlist (and on "Boss Radio" KHJ AM 930) for three weeks at the end of November and into early December; it soon entered the Top 40, and peaked at #13 on January 27, 1968. And two and a half years later, in June 1970, KRLA was able to force Capitol's hand a second time with "Long Long Time", which again got heavy airplay (despite the label's reluctance to release what they thought was a country ballad). It got up to #25 nationally in the fall of that year. Oh for the days when individual radio stations, their programmers, and the listeners actually had the power to determine what would be the hits. Well, it was the tail end of the famous Summer of 1967 after all, so it doesn't surprise me that it was already a hit in San Francisco. The song is very hippie sounding to me. Takes me right back to 1967 whenever I hear it.
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Post by sliderocker on Oct 31, 2013 14:22:58 GMT -5
Well, it was the tail end of the famous Summer of 1967 after all, so it doesn't surprise me that it was already a hit in San Francisco. The song is very hippie sounding to me. Takes me right back to 1967 whenever I hear it. Kind of ironic, I think, in that the San Francisco scene was considerably different from the music scene in Los Angeles, or was at least made out to be different. It doesn't really sound very hippie to me, not if you use the bands of 1967 San Francisco as a yardstick. It was an incredibly good record with an excellent production by Nik Venet and arrangement by Jimmy Bond and a killer lead vocal from Linda. As for which radio station played the song first, f one could check the radio logs of every radio station across the country, one could probably find one or more radio stations playing the song at the same time it was being played in San Francisco. Maybe even before it was being played in San Francisco. I know that radio stations in cities like Los Angeles and San Franisco in the west, Chicago and Cleveland in the north, Nashville in the south and New York City in the east frequently got the credit for a 45 "breaking out" in their cities and they were regarded as "trendsetter cities," but I've heard disc jockeys in other cities talk about the fact that they frequently played records that went on to be hits before the "trendsetter cities" played them. It's possible "Different Drum" may have already been receiving radio airplay in the non-break out cities. But the song would've been a hit regardless of which city first played it.
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Post by charlotte on Nov 1, 2013 14:23:59 GMT -5
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piotrek
A Number and a Name
Posts: 11
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Post by piotrek on Nov 2, 2013 13:44:53 GMT -5
I must admit that "Different Drum" is so stunningly beautiful record that it's almost painful to read about Linda criticising herself. It was rock and roll song and the genre allows certain dose of imperfection. When I listen to this song I can't hear false notes or other technically-oriented drawbacks because the core of "Different Drum" is Linda's heartbreaking, emotionally engaged performance. Her voice was so mature, so nuanced. People often tend to point at Aretha Franklin as the vocal matrix and while I'm not going to undermine her obvious talents I think that Linda's rendition of "Different Drum" is better than most of Aretha's "screaming" performances during the 60's. It's all about the intensity, passion and vocal determination that makes the song so unique. It was the first sign that Linda would become the master of interpretation. In this regard, I think that Linda is in similar position to Diana Ross. Of course Ross doesn't have the strength and range of Linda's voice but her approach to other people's material has always been mature and elegant.
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Post by Richard W on Nov 2, 2013 16:07:23 GMT -5
One thing we should keep in mind is the different perspectives between artist and audience. The artist, in this case Linda, was involved in the creation and all the give and take that entails. The audience only sees -- or hears -- the final result.
I have no doubt that should you ask any artist, let's say a painter, to look back over things hanging on museum walls with their name on it, there wouldn't be one of them who wouldn't be unhappy about their paintings. "Oh, I should never have used that color," or "I should have lengthened that line," or "I was in a crappy mood that week."
To my way of thinking, no artist is happy with their art. The ones that are happy are usually hacks.
Linda may be displeased with much of Different Drum because she was the artist and feels she somehow failed to do what she set out to do. As a member of her audience who loves the final result of her creative efforts, I find her dismay fascinating, but it in no way detracts from my sublime enjoyment of what she accomplished, her expectations notwithstanding.
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Post by erik on Nov 2, 2013 19:55:09 GMT -5
Quote by piotrek:
While I think people point to Aretha as the vocal matrix in part because of her "Lady Soul" title, I think just as much of that reputation seems to be based on the fact that she happens to be African-American. I realize that what I've said probably sounds racist, but I don't know what else you could call the implied accusations that Linda's recordings of R&B songs have little or no "soul" in them because she's a "white chick."
I too will not begrudge Aretha's achievements, but when it comes to Linda being accused of being "soulless" when it comes to her covering R&B material, I'm going to call a spade a spade. It always feels like some kind of apologia to black people for all the times when white artists, mainly in the early days of rock, stole from black artists by watering down what was then considered pretty racy material. To say Linda does it is a vicious, d***able lie (IMHO).
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Post by Eddie Lee on Nov 3, 2013 0:55:33 GMT -5
I've been watching this thread in particular. Just had a few questions. Did Linda ever sing Different Drum after leaving the Stone Poneys? I mean it was her signature song, but not having ever been smart enough to buy a ticket to one of her concerts, all I can go by is what's out their, and all you see is that one video of her in that nightclub. Was it maybe A copy-write issue or did she just not like the song that well?
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 3, 2013 1:50:00 GMT -5
I've been watching this thread in particular. Just had a few questions. Did Linda ever sing Different Drum after leaving the Stone Poneys? I mean it was her signature song, but not having ever been smart enough to buy a ticket to one of her concerts, all I can go by is what's out their, and all you see is that one video of her in that nightclub. Was it maybe A copy-write issue or did she just not like the song that well? There's a video of Linda from around 1968 or '69 performing "Different Drum," and I think it was said she performed the song off and on in the 70s. There wouldn't have been a copyright issue, especially since Linda's version of the song has been an extremely huge moneymaker for its composer, Michael Nesmith, and his then-music publisher, Screen Gems-Columbia Music. As for maybe disliking the song, just her version of the song although in fairness to Linda on this song, perhaps the fact that Bobby and Kenny were excluded from the recording session that produced the hit version is something of a bitter memory for her. The song was credited to the Stone Poneys but the truth of the matter was it was Linda solo, despite the musician credits on Linda Ronstadt's Greatest Hits and A Retrospective which indicated Kenny played one of the guitars on the song. I always felt all of Linda's setlists should've included "Different Drum" and "Long, Long Time" as many performers almost always included their first few hits. Still, she could've tired of singing both songs although I've never seen anything to indicate that possibility. I have seen a few laments over the years from her about being tired of singing "Desperado," but she never retired that song that I'm aware of. Funny, I think she could've come up with a good big band-style arrangement for DD and LLT...pity it never happened.
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Post by erik on Nov 3, 2013 13:28:14 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
I'm kind of on the fence on this. Those who have seen the video of "Different Drum" from March 1968 know that it's in a kind of swing tempo, but still very much a folk-rock song. I'm not sure it would have worked with a big-band sound, though. And I really don't think "Long Long Time" would have worked that way because the acoustic country/folk arrangement of the original seems to militate against that notion (IMHO).
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 3, 2013 15:14:49 GMT -5
I'm kind of on the fence on this. Those who have seen the video of "Different Drum" from March 1968 know that it's in a kind of swing tempo, but still very much a folk-rock song. I'm not sure it would have worked with a big-band sound, though. And I really don't think "Long Long Time" would have worked that way because the acoustic country/folk arrangement of the original seems to militate against that notion (IMHO). I think a lot of pop and rock songs in the 60s and 70s could've been arranged in the style of songs from the 1930s and 1940s, just as easily as what they were sometimes done in the 60s and 70s in the country and soul veins. A lot would depend on the care given the songs by the arrangers and musicians. Elvis took songs written by country songwriters and turned them into rockers, two such examples being Jerry Chestnut's song "T-R-O-U-B-L-E" and Dennis Linde's "Burning Love." With DD and LLT, I'm thinking more strings and woodwinds than necessarily horns although I can hear those songs in my head with certain kinds of horns being played.But, a bad arrangement can sink a good song and make the listener think the problem was in the song rather than the arrangement.
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Post by erik on Nov 3, 2013 21:07:39 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
I believe that Linda tried to shoehorn "Desperado" into some of her sets in 1983-84 with Nelson Riddle and his orchestra, an attempt that she felt in the end wasn't very good. And I think she may have been right; it doesn't work alongside pre-rock standards like "What's New" or "I've Got A Crush On You."
I could easily be dead wrong about "Long Long Time" not working in that fashion, but to my ears the original's arrangement already sounds orchestral in itself (neither the steel guitar or the fiddle sound anything like what they really are, and Linda articulates how that happened in her memoir).
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Post by Robert Morse on Nov 3, 2013 22:33:34 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker: I believe that Linda tried to shoehorn "Desperado" into some of her sets in 1983-84 with Nelson Riddle and his orchestra, an attempt that she felt in the end wasn't very good. And I think she may have been right; it doesn't work alongside pre-rock standards like "What's New" or "I've Got A Crush On You." I could easily be dead wrong about "Long Long Time" not working in that fashion, but to my ears the original's arrangement already sounds orchestral in itself (neither the steel guitar or the fiddle sound anything like what they really are, and Linda articulates how that happened in her memoir). Linda actually used Desperado as her encore beginning with her very first show with Nelson at Radio City. The arrangement was stunning, the crowd loved it, it actually worked quite well next to the standards, and rather than the song not fitting in it actually made a strong statement that good music is just that....good music. I do not recall Linda ever saying that the attempt was not very good-but then again I may have missed her comment on that. Would love to see the actual interview.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Nov 4, 2013 7:39:59 GMT -5
I agree. it worked well and was a crowd pleaser and to me it showed she still did her country rock stuff still. eddiejinnj
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Post by Richard W on Nov 4, 2013 9:15:15 GMT -5
When I saw Linda and Riddle in concert, they did perform Desperado, with Don Grolnick on piano solo at the beginning, with orchestra coming in during the second verse. I thought the song dovetailed nicely both Linda's past and her (then) present, and it was a beautiful and memorable music moment that, as Rob said, demonstrated that good music is good music.
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Post by rick on Nov 4, 2013 13:43:15 GMT -5
When I saw Linda and Riddle in concert, they did perform Desperado, with Don Grolnick on piano solo at the beginning, with orchestra coming in during the second verse. I thought the song dovetailed nicely both Linda's past and her (then) present, and it was a beautiful and memorable music moment that, as Rob said, demonstrated that good music is good music. Yes, Richard, I, too, saw Linda perform "Desperado" with Don Grolnick accompanying her on the piano during the first round of dates Linda did with Nelson Riddle. I remember I was there on the night of her first night ever performing these songs live at Radio City Music Hall in the fall of 1983. And when she closed with "Desperado," my friend Cara had tears streaming down her face. As for the interview in which Linda diminished her singing of the song, I believe it might have been the first night of "Tavis Smiley," when he showed a clip of her singing the song from the '70s in concert and when Tavis asked Linda about it, she talked about the blouse she was wearing and how much she paid for it, etc. And Tavis kept trying to get her to comment on her singing and she really had a hard time saying anything positive about her performance. She praised Don Henley instead. Earlier in this thread there was a back-and-forth about artists and how the good ones probably are never satisfied with their work, but the hacks are. I happened to listen to an interview that Patti LuPone gave to Graham Norton in London and Patti LuPone said she never likes to see herself or listen to any recordings, etc. It is all in the past. Patti LuPone discusses watching/hearing anything she has done
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 4, 2013 14:46:44 GMT -5
As for the interview in which Linda diminished her singing of the song, I believe it might have been the first night of "Tavis Smiley," when he showed a clip of her singing the song from the '70s in concert and when Tavis asked Linda about it, she talked about the blouse she was wearing and how much she paid for it, etc. And Tavis kept trying to get her to comment on her singing and she really had a hard time saying anything positive about her performance. She praised Don Henley instead. As far as her own music is concerned, Linda doesn't seem to mind talking about the big band songs she recorded or the Mexican songs she recorded. That has led me to wonder if she would get defensive about those recordings if someone criticized them as not being as good as her rock and country recordings? I tend to think Linda dislikes her pre-big band era recordings because of barbs from certain critics about song choices or the fact most of the songs were covers. As it relates to the last, what was any different about the big band recordings and the Mexican recordings? They were covers for the most part as well. But, she did them well, just as she did the rock and country recordings from earlier days well, not to mention her Stone Poneys recordings. I'm not sure if the critics ever criticized her singing, except for the late TV Guide critic Cleveland Amory, who knocked her performance of "You're No Good" on the Howard Cosell Show. And Amory wasn't really a music critic. But, I tend to think Linda's own view of the music she had made has been tainted by the barbs of her critics but for whatever reason, maybe there was more praise than barbs for the big band and Mexican era recordings. And for whatever reason, she still tends to be dismissive of her pre-big band recordings even though many people who are not critics don't share her assessment of those recordings.
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1peterd
A Number and a Name
Posts: 34
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Post by 1peterd on Nov 4, 2013 14:57:52 GMT -5
This Wall Street Journal article of 10/31/2013 above in “erik” post creates a discrepancy to me in view of Steve Gillette recollection of the recording session of Different Drum and attitude of Bobby Kimmel.
Mr. Kimmel: today “The irony, of course, is I didn’t sing or play on my group’s biggest hit. But you know what? It wouldn’t have mattered even if I had. It was Linda’s time.” Kenny Edwards also did not play on Different Drum.
Sometimes as time passes we recall how we should have acted and play that forward instead of how we acted at the time.
Steve Gillette: some years ago Who sang on the Stone Poneys' cover of one of his songs, was an eyewitness. He recalls, "While we were in the studio and just after having finished the duet vocals of Linda's and my version of 'Back On the Street Again' there was a scuffle and some noise just outside the door. When we opened it, there was a sad and for some, tearful scene in which it became clear that Kenny and Bobby had not been notified of the session, and had heard about it indirectly and showed up full of anger at the betrayal. Capitol really did try to break the group up."
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Post by Lestat on Nov 4, 2013 15:35:08 GMT -5
I think the reason why Linda is more fond of her Riddle/Canciones era is because her voice is much, much stronger than say on Different Drum. I remember when I was first getting into Linda (early 21st century), I was into the 70's/early 80's stuff (like mostly everyone else)--the ones that made her a household name. But when I began exploring her adventures outside that comfort zone, I was blown away how strong and powerful her voice really got, particularly on Canciones. The Pirates as well as the La boheme gigs did wonders in extending her range.
So maybe that's why she is dismissive of her early stuff, because she was still finding her voice then.
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Post by Richard W on Nov 4, 2013 20:02:30 GMT -5
Well, I've yet to her her say anything positive about her actual vocal performances on either the Riddle or Mexican songs. Rather, she saves her praise for the songs, for Riddle, for the forms themselves.
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Post by erik on Nov 4, 2013 20:59:44 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
I think she mentioned it in her memoir that a lot of rock and roll diehards were wondering why she had given up Buddy Holly for what they had long since dismissed as "elevator music", so there were some barbs thrown her way for the Nelson Riddle recordings. And while there was a fair amount of praise for Canciones De Mi Padre, some barbs were inevitably thrown at that album (via Rolling Stone) as well.
As we've often said, Linda often feels like she could have done things better, primarily because of her desire for perfection. And I know I've said this a lot before, but perfection in pop music is not really attainable, nor really desirable, since it can leach the soul out of something, making the artist in question appear to be a mere "technician" in the eyes and ears of some. I think that argument can be made, rightly or wrongly, about Linda as well.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 5, 2013 2:38:14 GMT -5
I think she mentioned it in her memoir that a lot of rock and roll diehards were wondering why she had given up Buddy Holly for what they had long since dismissed as "elevator music", so there were some barbs thrown her way for the Nelson Riddle recordings. And while there was a fair amount of praise for Canciones De Mi Padre, some barbs were inevitably thrown at that album (via Rolling Stone) as well.
I think a lot would depend on who the diehards were - fans in general or the critics, whose opinions changed as often as the wind direction. If the critics didn't like Linda's recordinngs because they were covers, quite honestly, I can't see why it would've bothered them so much when she changed musical direction. Unless of course it was that for all of their complaining, they actually liked her recordings. The music critics were often never very kind to the Bee Gees during their pre-disco era recordings but when they started doing disco, suddenly the critics loved the pre-disco era Bee Gees, praising the same songs they once put down. With the fans in general, I think most of the were a lot more flexible as to what Linda did. The rock diehards wouldn't have been Linda's fans anyway because the rock diehards tended to be the types who liked hard rock and heavy metal and dismissive of anyone who didn't play or sing that kind of music.
As we've often said, Linda often feels like she could have done things better, primarily because of her desire for perfection. And I know I've said this a lot before, but perfection in pop music is not really attainable, nor really desirable, since it can leach the soul out of something, making the artist in question appear to be a mere "technician" in the eyes and ears of some. I think that argument can be made, rightly or wrongly, about Linda as well.
Possibly the case but could Linda have done things better? On some of her recordings, yes, but she did some things right the first time. "Different Drum" would not be an almost 50-year old oldie still being played on the radio if it hadn't been sung, played, arranged and produced right. Likewise, Linda's vocals were pretty spot on on most recordings and part of the reason they were had to do with the age she was at the time she did them. She sought perfection but it was something she had already obtained. She was and is the best there was, the best there is and the best there will ever be. Maybe she will realize that someday.
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Post by erik on Nov 5, 2013 10:25:58 GMT -5
Quite obviously, what we consider perfection and what Linda considers perfection are two different things, and there really isn't anything we can do about it.
In defense, though (and I've often said this too), we have had generations of really good female artists who have followed Linda's muse over the years, and who would do anything short of homicide to have even a fraction of the vocal power, dexterity, and focus that Linda had.
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Post by Robert Morse on Nov 5, 2013 11:10:06 GMT -5
When I saw Linda and Riddle in concert, they did perform Desperado, with Don Grolnick on piano solo at the beginning, with orchestra coming in during the second verse. I thought the song dovetailed nicely both Linda's past and her (then) present, and it was a beautiful and memorable music moment that, as Rob said, demonstrated that good music is good music. As for the interview in which Linda diminished her singing of the song, I believe it might have been the first night of "Tavis Smiley," when he showed a clip of her singing the song from the '70s in concert and when Tavis asked Linda about it, she talked about the blouse she was wearing and how much she paid for it, etc. And Tavis kept trying to get her to comment on her singing and she really had a hard time saying anything positive about her performance. She praised Don Henley instead. Patti LuPone discusses watching/hearing anything she has doneI was looking for a reference to an interview where Linda specifically stated that the attempt to include Desperado in her Riddle shows was not very good. I have never heard her say that and it seems kind of odd that she would given that she started in 1983 with her very first Radio City show with Nelson using Desperado as the encore (it was definitely showcased and not shoehorned in) and she was still using it a year later when the show was recorded for video.
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 5, 2013 13:56:36 GMT -5
Quite obviously, what we consider perfection and what Linda considers perfection are two different things, and there really isn't anything we can do about it. All too true, though I have to wonder if Linda would think the same if all of her music was remixed and remastered? Music in the 60s and 70s were mixed and mastered for crappy music systems and not the high end expensive stereo systems few could afford back then. If Linda's revered big band, Mexican and Broadway recordings had been mixed and mastered to play on 60s and early 70s music systems, Linda might have thought her vocals were just as bad as the vocals on her rock and country recordings that she thought was bad. But, then I sometimes think her whole issue of preferring the big band, Mexican and Broadway recordings over her rock and country recordings have nothing to do with her vocals at all, and maybe everything to do with personal preferences. I would hope that wasn't the case but the way she has sometimes talked about her music, it sometimes comes across that way.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Nov 5, 2013 17:28:22 GMT -5
hearing her live on various shows and performances etc in the early years, I always said linda sounded so much better live than the recordings. eddiejinnj
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 6, 2013 2:04:16 GMT -5
Watching some of Linda's concert performances on youtube, she was very good indeed as a live performer though must say didn't like her live performances of the Stone Poneys songs "Different Drum" or "One for One." But, a lot of her recorded worked out real well when she performed them in concert, with results that were better than the studio recordings. "Down So Low" being one such example - studio version overdid it on backing vocals; in a concert video, Linda sings it alone and her vocal gives you goosebumps just listening to it that way. I was never much of a fan of that song on HDTW. Before the advent of the cd, whenever I was playing the album, it was one of two tracks I'd skip over or play after I'd played everything else first. With a cd player, I'd program the song to be the next to last song played - the acapella version of "Rivers of Babylon" being the very last song I'd play off of that album.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Nov 6, 2013 8:32:54 GMT -5
love one for one. great song. I think she did well with it at the Greenwich Village Bitter End show. eddiejinnj
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Post by erik on Nov 6, 2013 9:49:30 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker re. "Down So Low":
I think Linda was probably aiming for a blues/gospel arrangement on it; and while I agree the backing vocals are a bit much at times, it is what it is. And one has to admire Linda (for the millionth time, of course) for really wailing it in that fairly straightforward blues fashion, and belting that last "Down so low" with that typical Ronstadt ferocity (IMHO).
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Post by sliderocker on Nov 6, 2013 11:50:17 GMT -5
love one for one. great song. I think she did well with it at the Greenwich Village Bitter End show. eddiejinnj I like the song as well - as heard on "Evergreen, Vol. 2," but in fairness to the live performance, Linda was working with what essentially was a different band, and live performances were almost always different to the recorded versions, especially in the 50s and 60s. A musician or singer could sound great on the record but the playing and singing live could sometimes be another thing altogether. What often sounded great on record sounded ragged live. I don't know if Linda and her band were mixed through a mixing board at the Greenwich Village gig, or if her mike was plugged into the guitar or bass amplifiers, but the problem for me wasn't her singing at all. It was the band's playing. Linda's singing was always spot on but the band didn't sound so good. But, here again, I don't think they were so much the problem as maybe there wasn't a mixing board and a sound engineer to improve what was being heard.
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