|
|
Post by the Scribe on Oct 6, 2016 13:53:31 GMT -5
 I found this older but interesting article on the ever changing Billboard Charts and it goes to show you nothing is sacred, not even your #1 hit of long ago. I knew charts were changed and added to reflect the times but had no idea they were stripping artists of their past glories. That means "someone else" might be getting new found #1 hits as well. I wonder if Mariah Carey is still the King of Rock and Roll or has that changed again?Billboard Change Rules and Cheats Elvis of Ten [10] more No. 1 HitsBy: David Troedson and David Adams : Elvis Australia Source: Billboard / ARIA / Various December 3, 2011 - 8:04:14 PM Elvis Articles, By David Troedson Billboard Change Rules and Cheats Elvis of Ten [10] number one Hits Billboard have yet again changed the 'rules' applying to the main prestigious Billboard Hot 100 Chart that was first launched on August 4th 1958 removing ten [10] Elvis Presley's number one hits [Not 11 as some have claimed] from his ledger. Now important to proving that Billboard have indeed changed the rules, something denied even by EPE in a message to Fan Clubs this past week is that in April 2008* they ruled that Elvis' classic double sided number one hit single, Hound Dog / Don't Be Cruel would no longer be counted as two separate number ones despite the fact they had done so since 1956. This made it possible for Billboard to announce that Mariah Carey had surpassed Elvis Presley as the solo artist with the most No. 1 singles. The above mentioned ruling raised anger in the Elvis community but little could it know what was to come in 2011. [This is where the difference is in 10 and 11 hits as mentioned above.] Over the years Billboard have changed the rules many times : and we have no problem with changes necessary to reflect changes in the way music was sold, which we will go into in more detail later in this article. But not illogical changes. Billboards latest ruling is based on the fact that the Billboard Hot 100 Chart was first launched on August 4th 1958 and so number one hits counted by other means on differently named charts prior to this date [But still 'the Billboard chart of the day'] should not be counted. And it should be noted that importantly while the Billboard Hot 100 Chart was a new chart it was also the replacement of the existing main Billboard chart. So a consistency pre and post August 1958 can be argued. A disingenuous move Now we acknowledge you can look at this two ways, however as Billboard had no problem including Elvis' [and other artists] number one hits in its new chart after August 4th 1958 though the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and all the way to 2011 as they would have needed to be able to quote new records and generate interest in their companies chart against opposition from 'CashBox' etc : So it is disingenuous to remove them now. A distortion of music History The move also distorts the history of the modern era of rock 'n' roll : and there would be very few artists today that would not consider Elvis Presley as a part of the music scene today even though it has evolved. This is not a case of completely different music that was in existence prior to Elvis 'knocking the music world for six' in 1956, changing for ever the type of music that is a popular song. Via this change Billboard discredit themselves and their chart It matters not if The Beatles have more number ones, or if Rihanna or Mariah Carey* surpass Elvis as the solo artist with the most number ones, Elvis will always be the King of Rock 'n' Roll' , but to remove him from the established chart in this way is boarding on criminal.
April 2008 : Billboard denies Elvis his famous Double Sided Hit Single Hound Dog / Don't Be Cruel
* It was the announcement by Billboard in April 2008 that Mariah Carey had surpassed Elvis Presley as the solo artist with the most No. 1 singles on Billboard's U.S Hot 100 Chart that it was revealed that they had ruled that Elvis' classic double sided number one hit single, Hound Dog / Don't Be Cruel would no longer be counted as two separate number one hits. Billboard removed one number one hit from Elvis, and so Mariah was ahead.
They also announced that Madonna had surpassed Elvis Presley in the number of 'Top Ten' hits with 37 hits.
Billboards Geoff Mayfield : 'Billboard's charts department and the magazine's trivia expert, Fred Bronson, consider those two songs comprise but one single, and thus a singular No. 1 shared by the two songs'.
Both of these claims were disputed by music historian Joel Whitburn and Elvis Presley Enterprises and many Elvis Presley Fan Clubs. Whitburn lists Elvis as having 18 number 1 hits (placing him in a tie with Mariah Carey at that time) and 38 top ten hits (one more than Madonna at that time). EPE claimed Elvis had 40 top ten hits. The differences depend on whether a double-sided hit single is counted as one hit single, or two hit songs.
Until 2008 the Double Sided Single Hound Dog Don't Be Cruel was counted as two No. 1 Hits
Before the age of Compact Discs and digital music downloads, singles were released on vinyl 45 RPM records, with one song on each side (an A-side and a B-side or flip side). Both songs of many Elvis singles became hits and were listed on the charts. Hound Dog / Don't Be Cruel was a double sided hit single that topped the Billboard Sales chart for 11 weeks in 1956. At the time, Hound Dog was listed as the number 1 A-side for the first 5 weeks, and Don't Be Cruel was listed as the number 1 A-side for the last 6 weeks.
We made a strong statement at the time against this move and in compiling a list of all four charts Billboard compiled from November 1955 to August 1958 which you can view here you can see what a big a hit it was and that Don't Be Cruel did chart independently on the 'Best Sellers in Stores', 'Most Played by Jockeys' and 'Top 100' Charts and the combined two songs charted multiple times on all four charts, a monster hit. So Billboard had no right to once again re-write history and strip Elvis of two No. 1's for this single as they did in 2008.
Proof That Billboard have Change The Rules in 2011
Now it is in this 2008 move that proves that Billboard have indeed changed the rules in 2011, despite even the surprising statement from EPE this week to Fan Club Presidents 'So Billboard is in no way changing their system to reflect less number ones for Elvis'. We need EPE [And Sony] to get active on this not just accept it.
Or did they change the rules [and Remove the Other 10 No. 1's] in July 2008?
In proof-reading this document we may have stumbled upon something new.
First we have Billboard publicly announcing Mariah Carey had surpassed Elvis Presley as the solo artist with the most No. 1 singles on Billboard's U.S Hot 100 Chart in April 2008.
Then we have a published chart excluding Elvis in July 2008.
When we originally published this article we added text along with a chart image [so as to be balanced in our reporting] showing Billboard had somewhere acknowledged Elvis not being on the chart, however in our proof reading we noticed this chart was from July 2008 and and so that took us by surprise. Putting two and two together as they say, or we think we have, we think Billboard may have in fact removed Elvis' number ones in 2008 and wonder if this was a response to Elvis fans and even EPE disputing the matter and Billboard deciding to rid themselves of any debate? And we have only found out in November 2011 with their announcement on November 04, 2011, 'Could Rihanna Be Bigger Than the Beatles on the Billboard Hot 100?' Off Site Link which announced that 'With the ascension of Love, Rihanna becomes just the seventh artist to notch at least 11 Hot 100 No. 1s, joining the Beatles (20), Mariah Carey (18), Michael Jackson (13), Madonna (12), the Supremes (12) and Whitney Houston (11). Perhaps it does not mater when they did it, we have proven they did it, but what we have found [View new article] suggests they did in fact do so in 2008.
Articles about Elvis Presley Did Billboard Remove Elvis Presley's No. 1 Hits in 2008 : Not 2011 ?
Billboard's Changes to The Hot 100 over The Years : A Brief Overview
During the 1940s and 1950s, popular singles were ranked in three significant charts:
Best Sellers In Stores : ranked the biggest selling singles in retail stores, as reported by merchants surveyed throughout the country (20 to 50 positions).
Most Played By Jockeys : ranked the most played songs on United States radio stations, as reported by radio disc jockeys and radio stations (20 to 25 positions).
Most Played In Jukeboxes : ranked the most played songs in jukeboxes across the United States (20 positions). This was one of the main outlets of measuring song popularity with the younger generation of music listeners, as many radio stations resisted adding rock 'n roll music to their playlists for many years.
Although officially all three charts had equal 'weight' in terms of their importance, many chart historians refer to the 'Best Sellers In Stores' chart when referencing a song's performance prior to the creation of the Hot 100.
Top 100 Chart
Billboard eventually created another singles popularity chart that combined all aspects of a single's performance (sales, airplay and jukebox activity), based on a point system that typically gave sales (purchases) more weight than radio airplay'. On the week ending November 12, 1955, Billboard published The 'Top 100' for the first time. The 'Best Sellers In Stores', 'Most Played By Jockeys' and 'Most Played In Jukeboxes' charts continued to be published concurrently with the new 'Top 100 chart'.
On June 17, 1957, Billboard discontinued the 'Most Played In Jukeboxes' chart, as the popularity of jukeboxes waned and radio stations incorporated more and more rock-oriented music into their playlists. The week ending July 28, 1958 was the final publication of the 'Most Played By Jockeys' and 'Top 100' charts, both of which had Perez Prado's instrumental version of Patricia ascending to the top.
On August 4, 1958, Billboard premiered one main all-genre singles chart: the 'Hot 100'. Although similar to the 'Top 100', the first 'Hot 100' chart reset all songs' 'weeks on chart' status to '1'. The 'Hot 100' quickly became the industry standard and Billboard discontinued the 'Best Sellers In Stores' chart on October 13, 1958.
The Billboard 'Hot 100' is still the standard by which a song's popularity is measured in the United States.
* Elvis had only seven number one hits on the short lived 'Top 100' chart. But it is the 'Best Sellers In Stores' chart that has always been used to calculate the hits from 1956 too August 1958 through the years including in 2008 when they removed one hit from Elvis' tally. This comes from a book compiled by Joel Whitburn who has used the 'Best Sellers in Stores' chart a consistent source, and one based on sales, which I think is perfectly acceptable and with only a bit of a question over if Elvis' tally should come from the 'Top 100' or 'Best Sellers in Stores' chart, I consider either flows as evolution into the Hot 100, probably more so for the Top 100 however due to the fact that Billboard themselves have quoted up until at least 2008 charts complied from the 'Best Sellers in Stores' chart, I think it not only can be but must be counted when quoting Hot 100 records.
However There Is A problem with the Top 100 Chart
Another possible and good reason why Joel Whitburn ignored the 'Top 100' chart is [From Wikipedia] 'Most Played In Jukeboxes' : ranked the most played songs in jukeboxes across the United States (20 positions). This was one of the main outlets of measuring song popularity with the younger generation of music listeners, as many radio stations resisted adding rock 'n roll music to their playlists for many years and in doing so the fact that the 'Top 100' Chart included radio play distorted the 'modern era' of music chart he was compiling which I would say is 1956 to today by including too many of the 'pre-rock era' style songs. Also of note is that Billboard discontinued the 'Most Played In Jukeboxes' chart on June 17, 1957.
It would also be true that as each year passed and especially as we entered the next decade radio would have 'caught up' and be more balanced, and so the 'Hot 100' better balanced.
However with the two big problems we have discovered with the Top 100 we can only conclude Joel Whitburn's method correct. So the system that has been in place up to 2008 and even into this year is the best.
Today
Today there are several component charts that contribute to the overall calculation of the Hot 100.
The most significant ones are shown below.
Hot 100 Airplay : radio stations, 'composed of adult contemporary, R&B, hip-hop, country, rock, gospel, Latin and Christian formats, digitally monitored, seven days a week. Charts are ranked by number of gross audience impressions, computed by cross-referencing exact times of radio airplay with Arbitron listener data'.
Hot 100 Singles Sales : (per Billboard) 'the top selling singles compiled from a national sample of retail store, mass merchant and internet sales reports collected, compiled, and provided by Nielsen SoundScan'.
Hot Digital Songs : Digital sales are tracked by SoundScan and are included as part of a title's sales points.
For many years, a song had to be commercially available as a single to be considered for any of Billboard's charts. At the time, instead of using SoundScan or BDS, Billboard obtained its data from manual reports filled out by radio stations and stores. Prior to the official implementation of Nielsen SoundScan tracking in November 1991, many radio stations and retail stores removed songs from their manual reports after the associated record labels stopped promoting a particular single. Thus songs fell quickly after peaking and had shorter chart lives. In 1990, the country singles chart was the first chart to use SoundScan and BDS. They were followed by the Hot 100 and the R&B chart in 1991. Today, all of Billboard's charts use this technology.
Airplay alone gets a single on the Chart
In December 1998, the policy was further modified to allow tracks to chart on the basis of airplay alone without a commercial release. This change was made to reflect the changing realities of the music business.
While we agree it was necessary to change the rules to 'airplay' as we will explain below, this must be one of the most unacceptable ways in which to record the success of a song. However it was necessary and was not in any way a conspiracy to advantage today's artists over say Elvis as many have suggested.
So always changes.
[Now with this change to airplay alone, could it not be said the chart has changed and say The Beatles be removed? We think not but it would be somewhat consistent with what they have done with Elvis]
Billboard has also changed its Hot 100 policy regarding 'two-sided singles' several times.
A Little Less Conversation
Even with Elvis' worldwide smash hit A Little Less Conversation many incorrectly claim Elvis was robbed of a number one hit in the USA because of Billboards airplay counting system, this is wrong because the change was made as singles sales started to die and in fact did basically become extinct. It has been quite sometime since music stores have carried CD singles and years since they were a dominant force of customer interest.
So Billboard, and for example ARIA in Australia had to find a new way to count Sales
Just on A Little Less Conversation, yes it was the biggest selling single in the United States in 2002, but be honest how much competition did it have? With the single dying and record companies preferring to sell albums it could be argued that Elvis may not have been number one if the industry was still strong on physical sales. Truthfully we will never know, but the fact is the charts are calculated in a certain way today and A Little Less Conversation did not make it to number one. So Elvis was not 'robbed' here.
The Comeback of the Single
By the way, the 'single' is making a comeback via downloads, iTunes etc and we will surely wee a return to at least a more balance method by counting actual sales before too long.
And again Billboard will change its rules !!!!!
How the Billboard move came to our attention
Earlier this month Billboard announced 'With the ascension of Love, Rihanna becomes just the seventh artist to notch at least 11 Hot 100 No. 1s, joining the following acts ....
[This lead to articles with headings like 'Could Rihanna Be Bigger Than the Beatles on the Billboard Hot 100?']
The Billboard Hot 100 as it stands today
1.The Beatles (20)
2.Mariah Carey (18)
3.Michael Jackson (13)
4.Madonna (12)
5.The Supremes (12)
6.Whitney Houston and Rihanna both with (11)
Elvis should be sitting in the second place but he is no longer even in the top 10.
Elvis has dropped from a total of 17* No. 1s to just seven [7] in the United States
1.A Big Hunk O' Love
2.Stuck On You
3.It's Now Or Never
4.Are You Lonesome Tonight
5.Surrender
6.Good Luck Charm
7.Suspicious Minds
The following are no longer officially Billboard U.S. No. 1s
1.Heartbreak Hotel
2.I Want You, I Need You, I Love You
3.Don't Be Cruel*
4.Hound Dog*
5.Love Me Tender
6.Too Much
7.All Shook Up
8.Teddy Bear
9.Jailhouse Rock
10.Don't
11.Hard Headed Woman
The following are Elvis' No. 1's on the short lived Top 100 Chart
1.Heartbreak Hotel
2.Don't Be Cruel
3.Love Me Tender
4.All Shook Up
5.(Let Me Be Your) Teddy Bear
6.Jailhouse Rock
7.Don't
If you would like to comment on this article you can do so Here
Conclusion
Billboard is mainly aimed at distributing information to radio stations as a feedback as to what is popular today [currently mainly as told to them by the same said radio stations] and their interest lie in promoting themselves and the companies that advertise in the magazine and we know that Sony do not have a huge budget to advertising Elvis which is an annoyance to some fans but a commercial reality if the truth be told.
As the 2008 announcement that Mariah Carey had surpassed Elvis Presley as the solo artist with the most No. 1 singles and 2011's 'With the ascension of Love, Rihanna becomes just the seventh artist to notch at least 11 Hot 100 No. 1s, joining the following acts ....' Billboard get to promote themselves via the media reporting on the story. So it does seem very much that first they removed one of Elvis' hits in 2008 by deciding that no longer counting double sided hits would be a good way to make way for Mariah Carey but then that proved to be insufficient so they went further and dumped Elvis' hits prior to August 4, 1958.
The question must be asked, why the rush? Could it be that they fear with downloads bringing the potential for single chart data to be once again based on sales that somehow they would miss there chance to make these announcements? Whatever it is : we conclude Billboard are only interested in themselves and those that fund them in advertising more than being an accurate chart company. Bring back Cashbox anyone?
Is it possible that after Billboard removed one number one from Elvis and after the strong Elvis fan reaction to this they decided to remove Elvis altogether, and his fans?
As it stands today we think music history is being distorted by Billboard to suit corporate greed.
Billboard are wrong and both EPE and Sony need to be active about correcting this.
•Published November 20, 2011
•Updated November 21. November 22. November 23.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 14:22:50 GMT -5
Damn time lords messing with history!
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Oct 6, 2016 14:24:25 GMT -5
Well, to put it mildly, this is horses***!
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Oct 6, 2016 22:01:37 GMT -5
As I have always claimed, Billboard has a bias against Elvis which they deny having. They claim that Elvis hasn't been cheated out of any number ones because they're just shifting the parameters of more modern times. But, that shifting parameter of modern time begins in 1964. Why that year and not 1970 or 1980 or 2000. Because that was the year the Beatles debuted and in the collective minds of Billboard's editors, the Beatles, not Elvis, changed history. One of the troubling things about Billboard's bias in favor of the Beatles and against Elvis is that for the longest time, the late Casey Kasem reported Elvis and the Beatles were tied with 18 number one hits.
How did the Beatles gain two additional number ones while Billboard disqualified Elvis' biggest double sided hit as only being one? Billboard did not disqualify double sided 45s the Beatles had that were number one (such as "We Can Work It Out," "Day Tripper"). One of the Beatle records they upped their tally with was "Something" and "Come Together." "Something" only made it to number three initially, not number one with the charting B-side "Come Together" making it to number one. Perhaps Billboard conveniently forgot its original ranking and decided "Something" was also a number one? But, if that were the case, how come Billboard didn't up all those Elvis B-sides that charted separately as the B-side of a number one single? Especially if it didn't matter because they were each just one single? Billboard counts the Beatles' double sided number ones as two separate number one records, so it would appear the bias they deny against Elvis actually exists.
It's possible Elvis' highest chart ranking singles in the 60s and early 70s likely should've been a number one instead of the highest chart position it got to. Certainly, "Burning Love" should've been the number one song in the US and not Chuck Berry's "My Ding a Ling." As I've said before, Elvis' single sold two and a half million copies whereas the Chuck Berry single was a few thousand shy of selling a million copies. Billboard could not make up enough radio airplay to overtake a difference of over a million copies. Likewise, Elvis' last single released while he was still alive, also sold more than two million copies, because of his death no doubt, but it could do no better than 18? I don't know how many singles that were ahead of Elvis when he died had sold as many copies as what Elvis sold in the weeks after his death, but there were some not certified gold (million singles sold) or platinum (two million singles sold). Another curious Billboard aberration is that the Elvis albums that were available for sale in the stores did not chart highly or at all, despite the fact all stores ran out of Elvis records. RCA had to dedicate several of their record plants to exclusively manufacturing Elvis records around the clock. The demand was sold great they couldn't keep up with the demand. RCA claimed in the first year after Elvis' death, they sold more than 200 million albums on Elvis. But, you'd never know that looking at the Billboard charts.
As for RCA's claim, RCA no longer had to pay Elvis or his estate on albums released before March 31, 1973. That was when Col. Greed sold Elvis' entire back catalog to RCA for six million officially, but with the various side deals, the grand total was slightly more than ten million. But, of that money, Parker made six million on the deal and Elvis made four million. Parker never audited RCA's books on Elvis' behalf, so he had no way of knowing of whether Elvis had been paid all of his royalties. It was ironic that when Parker and RCA were sued by the estate in 1981, Parker, who had engineered the deal in the first place, claimed he was against the deal and cautioned Elvis against selling and claimed Elvis wanted to sell. After the court found that Parker and RCA had acted in collusion to defraud Elvis, it's astounding the court did not return the recordings to the Presley estate. Elvis had always paid for his own recording sessions, so RCA never advanced him any money based on his royalties.
Getting off the Billboard track a little, but there's no question Billboard is looking for more and more ways to deny Elvis' place in music history. And it's because they do have a bias against him despite their claim otherwise.
|
|
|
|
Post by jhar26 on Oct 7, 2016 6:58:30 GMT -5
If a 100 years from now they will write that big encyclopedic work on the history of popular music I doubt that Mariah Carey will even be a footnote in it. In short: I don't care. Pat Boone had more hits than Little Richard, yet Richard is revered while Boone is at best just a punchline to a few jokes. So it really doesn't matter because stats can never hide the fact that your stuff was either gold or shite.
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Oct 7, 2016 9:52:58 GMT -5
Quote by jhar26:
I think the reason Pat Boone is the punchline that he is is because of what he did to all of those early rock and roll hits (like "Ain't That A Shame", which Fats Domino owns). When he sticks to "Love Letters In The Sand" or "April Love", then he's very much in his element, better at it than anyone else in the 1950s. But all he ever really was to a lot of people was a parent-approved alternative to Elvis, and the "kids" of that time wanted that kid from Tupelo, Mississippi much more than they wanted Mr. White Buckskin Shoes.
|
|
|
|
Post by the Scribe on Oct 7, 2016 14:07:54 GMT -5
Something about Boone gives me the creepy crawlies although that might be more my problem and perception. I think it got worse when he started his racist rants against Obama. I haven't always been a fan of Obama either but you can tell when the negativity is based in racism and not on facts that there is more going on.
Elvis will always be considered the King of Rock no matter who or what tries to diminish it just as Linda will always be the First Lady of Rock. Been lots of queens of rock (including Linda) but only ONE First Lady of Rock.
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Oct 7, 2016 17:49:21 GMT -5
Quote by ronstadtfanaz:
Well Pat Boone's always been something of a Holy Roller (appearing more than a few times on TBN and other evangelical TV networks), and more than a bit of a bigot...something else that distinguishes him from Elvis. He is one of those who acts like the 1960s never happened.
|
|
|
|
Post by the Scribe on Oct 7, 2016 18:15:19 GMT -5
That seems to be a trait of the new American Conservatives just by definition. They constantly try to pin racism on the Democratic Party and historically southern Democrats aka Dixiecrats are racists. But when the Civil Rights Bill came before congress NOT ONE Conservative voted for it and it was LIBERALS from BOTH parties that got it passed. When the Democratic president LBJ signed it into law Conservatives began jumping the Democratic ship and latched onto the GOP. Likewise Liberals fled the Republican Party for the Democratic Party and the rest as they say is history.
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Oct 7, 2016 19:06:51 GMT -5
To get back to Elvis for a second:
You have to wonder among other things whether, with this "revisionist" chart action of Billboard's, Elvis still has had more Top 40 hits than anyone else, which I believe is 114 by last count, from 1956's "Heartbreak Hotel" to the posthumous 1981 "Guitar Man" (actually a remixing of a #43 hit of his from 1968). I hope they don't take away the fact that he had more triple chart-toppers, meaning songs that topped the pop, R&B, and C&W charts, than anyone else--but then, I think that record (five in all) is pretty much unassailable.
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Oct 7, 2016 20:35:03 GMT -5
Something about Boone gives me the creepy crawlies although that might be more my problem and perception. I think it got worse when he started his racist rants against Obama. I haven't always been a fan of Obama either but you can tell when the negativity is based in racism and not on facts that there is more going on.
Pat Boone has always been a Republican, so it's a given he wouldn't like Obama or any Democrat. Boone gives me the creepy crawlies as well and there's always been something about him that just struck me as phony. He says he's a descendant of Daniel Boone and he's supposedly related to the late actor Richard Boone, but I never heard Richard Boone claim of being related to Pat. Boone was on some telethon and there were twin sisters on and who were actresses, and who performed a lame version of "Angel of the Morning." After the twins finished, Boone said "Ain't they cute?" And he sounded lecherous just saying it and looked as though he had lust on his mind.
As for his music, Boone thought he should get as much credit as Elvis received for opening the doors for black artists being able to be heard, citing the fact he covered some of the same songs as Elvis. He also thought he should be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for the same reason. He couldn't see his versions of the songs were considered watered down versions not played or sung with the same intensity as Elvis' versions, much less the versions by the originals. He also didn't realize he wasn't considered rock and roll. But, even if those two things weren't reason to disqualify him for the hall, his comments in TV Guide after Elvis died would probably be considered fighting words by the hall. Boone compared himself and Elvis as like two characters in a Western movie or TV show. Elvis was the bad guy and he, Pat, was the good guy. Elvis died and good prevailed and bad perished. His comments offended a lot of Elvis fans and although he may have meant no offense, they struck many as insensitive as he had said them not long after Elvis' death.
Elvis will always be considered the King of Rock no matter who or what tries to diminish it just as Linda will always be the First Lady of Rock. Been lots of queens of rock (including Linda) but only ONE First Lady of Rock.
Those are my sentiments as well, and I'd bet Elvis would probably have agreed on Linda being the First Lady of Rock or Queen of Rock as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Oct 7, 2016 21:42:58 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker re. Elvis vs. Pat Boone:
I have no idea what Pat Boone was drinking (or smoking?) for him to make the claim at he should be given as much credit for opening the door for black artists as Elvis. But it does make me wonder if some of the accusations that have been hurled Elvis' way that he "stole" from black people's music (mostly by the generation of rap artists that came two decades after Elvis' death) were the result of the two men being conflated and confused with one another. Elvis was always, to my knowledge, hugely respectful about how much the music of black people influenced him, and how he was very close friends with many of them, which you really couldn't say about Pat Boone. And when it came to religious and Gospel-influenced material, Elvis topped Boone in that respect too, as with his 1957 recording of "Peace In The Valley", "Crying In The Chapel" (recorded in 1960, but a huge hit in 1965), and the epochal "If I Can Dream" in 1968. But meanwhile, aside from watering down things like Fats Domino's classic "Ain't That A Shame", Mr. Bucksin Shoes' last big hit was 1962's "Speedy Gonzales", which bordered on being a racist caricature of Mexicans.
As for Boone's quote following Elvis' death--well, the fact that, to my knowledge, he didn't retract it does seem to say volumes....none of it good (IMHO).
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Oct 8, 2016 12:15:58 GMT -5
I have no idea what Pat Boone was drinking (or smoking?) for him to make the claim at he should be given as much credit for opening the door for black artists as Elvis. But it does make me wonder if some of the accusations that have been hurled Elvis' way that he "stole" from black people's music (mostly by the generation of rap artists that came two decades after Elvis' death) were the result of the two men being conflated and confused with one another. Elvis was always, to my knowledge, hugely respectful about how much the music of black people influenced him, and how he was very close friends with many of them, which you really couldn't say about Pat Boone.
My guess would be that for Pat Boone, it's an ego thing. He wants to believe he was just as responsible as what Elvis was in opening the doors for black music to be heard. On the "stolen" allegations, it's conceivable some confused Pat Boone for Elvis. It's like black musician Bernard Purdy claimed to have replaced some of Ringo Starr's drum tracks on Beatle songs because Starr wasn't a good drummer. Purdy played drums on some of the songs chosen for the movie bomb of the Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band," and I always thought he confused Bee Gees brother Maurice Gibb who "played" drums in the movie for Ringo. Gibb was a multi-instrumentalist but he didn't play the drums.
Elvis was from Mississippi and from Memphis. He was washed deep in the black blues songs as he was in the white country songs.Both genres were part of his soul. And growing up, he lived among the blacks, something Pat Boone couldn't say about his growing up. Elvis was respected by many of the black artists like B.B. King and Fats Domino, who also grew up in the south. They knew Elvis was for real. One irony to the charge that Elvis stole from the black man is that much of that came from blacks who may not have been from the south, like Bo Diddley, who was from Chicago. Diddley was an influence on Elvis but Diddley was often critical of Elvis and angry about his success. Many music critics think all the blues is the same, no matter where it originates from, but there is a difference in the experience of the souls of those who grew up in the deep south and those, like Diddley, who grew up elsewhere. It's the same genre but it's not the same experience. It's two different world views. And that also explains the difference between Elvis and Pat Boone. Elvis lived among the blacks, Boone's world was likely an all white one, and whose family probably wouldn't have tolerated him listening to the music of the blacks.
And when it came to religious and Gospel-influenced material, Elvis topped Boone in that respect too, as with his 1957 recording of "Peace In The Valley", "Crying In The Chapel" (recorded in 1960, but a huge hit in 1965), and the epochal "If I Can Dream" in 1968.
Elvis acknowledged his spiritual beliefs but he never wore them publicly very much as a way of getting people to like him. Boone seem to wear his religion publicly and it came across as possibly insincere. But, here again, the difference between Elvis' performances of gospel music was that he felt it and sang it with emotion. Boone's performances were lacking, always a dry and dull reading, sung the same way. Little wonder Elvis' gospel recordings bested Boone's.
But meanwhile, aside from watering down things like Fats Domino's classic "Ain't That A Shame", Mr. Bucksin Shoes' last big hit was 1962's "Speedy Gonzales", which bordered on being a racist caricature of Mexicans.
On "Speedy Gonzales," yes and no, it was based on the Warner Brothers cartoon character and that cartoon, viewed today, probably is considered racist. Same for the song. But, it probably wasn't back in the day when the cartoon was very popular and even Mexican or Spanish artists have recorded the "Speedy Gonzales" song. Is it still racist if they recorded the song, which was a novelty? The song by the way, was written by Buddy Kaye, Ethel Lee and David Hess and if those names don't sound familiar and they probably won't, except for Ethel Lee, Buddy Kaye and David Hess wrote songs for many artists, including Elvis. Kaye's name is on a lot of Elvis songs. Hess' name is on three or four songs. He wrote one very good song for Elvis, "Sand Castles." And like Elvis, he was also an actor.
Hess also produced and directed movies and scored movies. One more fascinating fact about Hess: he was the singer on the demo for Elvis of "All Shook Up," and he sang some of the other demos as well. He wasn't a bad songwriter and it's a shame Elvis didn't record more of his songs. He was also a year younger than Elvis, so that made him a contemporary and would've made him a better fit as a songwriter than others writing for Elvis, some of whom were born in the late 1800s and many born in the early 1900s.
And Elvis songwriter Otis Blackwell also wrote a Boone hit, "Don't Forbid Me," although that song was apparently written for Elvis. In the Million Dollar Quartet recording, Elvis sings the song and tells Perkins, Cash and Lewis that the song was written for him, but he doesn't say if he ever recorded it. And I know Elvis was upset when Johnny Rivers' version of "Memphis" was rush-released as a single after Elvis played Rivers his version of the song and told him he was going to release it as a single. Also made me wonder if Elvis recorded a version of "Don't Forbid Me" and planned it as a single, but then Boone came out with his version?
As for Boone's quote following Elvis' death--well, the fact that, to my knowledge, he didn't retract it does seem to say volumes....none of it good (IMHO).
It did speak volumes about Boone. I thought his comment was all ego and professional jealousy. Jealous of the immense success Elvis had, jealous of his looks (which was a common complaint for a lot of guys) jealous of his vast range - Elvis had a three octave range, Boone just had one range, set on crooning. Boone was more of a singer in the Bing Crosby style than he was in Elvis' style, although he wasn't in Crosby's league either. Boone had one thing in common with Crosby besides crooning: both wore toupees. Many may have suspected Boone was wearing a toupee because his hair style was always the same - lame, but as Elvis said, truth is like the sun and you can't shut it out. Boone was on "Nashville Now" in the 80s and he was showing off his lariat roping skills during one part of the show. I don't know what he was planning on lassoing, but he somehow ended up lassoing his toupee, yanking it off. He grinned but it was an embarrassing grin: outed and caught on television, and there wasn't a thing he could do about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by the Scribe on Oct 8, 2016 13:06:15 GMT -5
I don't know. Pat Boone's career seemed to border on racism with his covers and his ideological viewpoints expressed later in life seem to confirm that. He didn't come off as authentic or honest. Elvis did.
"I think honesty is of the first, utmost importance in art... any art. After that comes technique and... after that comes talent. Honesty is first. All the rest of the things are important, too, but they're secondary. Without honesty, I don't care how much technique you have, you have nothing."--Linda Ronstadt
|
|
|
|
Post by the Scribe on Oct 10, 2016 14:36:14 GMT -5
Before somebody asks I have no idea what this photo is from. Looks like a movie set. Mid to late 60's?
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Oct 10, 2016 14:43:07 GMT -5
I think that picture of Elvis with The Colonel was probably on one of the sets of those movies Elvis virtually had to do for most of the 1960s at the Colonel's "million dollar a film" behest. It may have been 1968's SPEEDWAY.
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Oct 10, 2016 21:24:44 GMT -5
I think that picture of Elvis with The Colonel was probably on one of the sets of those movies Elvis virtually had to do for most of the 1960s at the Colonel's "million dollar a film" behest. It may have been 1968's SPEEDWAY. No, it was Elvis' last acting role Change of Habit. Elvis' hair wasn't as "long" in Speedway as it was in Change of Habit. Elvis' sideburns were also longer and he wore that sweatshirt in his last acting movie. I believe the sweatshirt had the name of some football team on. As for the long sideburns, there was only one other Elvis movie in which his sideburns were that long: the misnamed The Trouble with Girls (And How to Get Into It).Here are three music videos from each of the movies in question Speedway 1967 The Trouble with Girls (And How to Get Into It) late 1968 Change of Habit 1969 |
|
|
|
Post by the Scribe on Oct 10, 2016 21:56:33 GMT -5
Sideburn wise I would vote for the third movie Rubberneckin'.
Although, sideburns grow very fast in my experience. I have never seen such thick, wide, perfect sideburns in my life. They almost don't look real to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Oct 10, 2016 22:57:38 GMT -5
With only a handful of exceptions (and certain moments), Elvis' 1960s films were a fairly mediocre lot, at best.
Incidentally, "Rubberneckin'", which was used in CHANGE OF HABIT (which was released into theaters in November 1969), was one of those songs he recorded with Chips Moman at American Studios in his hometown of Memphis in early 1969. It was the B-side for "Don't Cry Daddy", which would just miss going into the Top Five (peaking at #6) in January 1970.
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Oct 11, 2016 14:39:11 GMT -5
Sideburn wise I would vote for the third movie Rubberneckin'.
Although, sideburns grow very fast in my experience. I have never seen such thick, wide, perfect sideburns in my life. They almost don't look real to me. I was always frustrated with my own sideburns because they were never as thick and as wide as what Elvis' sideburns were. When Elvis grew a beard for his movie "Charro," it was like it was a half-hearted beard when comparing the thickness of his sideburns afterwards. I rather imagine he could've grown a thick beard if he had wanted. I tried to find a scene with a clear shot from "Change of Habit" which featured the sweatshirt he was wearing in the black and white photo with Col. Parker, but it was hard to find that shot. But, it is in "Change of Habit," with those perfect sideburns! |
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Oct 11, 2016 14:56:59 GMT -5
With only a handful of exceptions (and certain moments), Elvis' 1960s films were a fairly mediocre lot, at best. Incidentally, "Rubberneckin'", which was used in CHANGE OF HABIT (which was released into theaters in November 1969), was one of those songs he recorded with Chips Moman at American Studios in his hometown of Memphis in early 1969. It was the B-side for "Don't Cry Daddy", which would just miss going into the Top Five (peaking at #6) in January 1970. I thought Elvis' last few movie roles from "Stay Away Joe" on were pretty good, except for "Change of Habit." And not because that movie wasn't necessarily a bad movie, just that Elvis and Mary Tyler Moore really didn't have any on screen chemistry. Elvis did hit it off with actress Jane Elliott, who played the rebel nun and who was just 19 when she made the movie. The double punch of "Rubberneckin'" and "Don't Cry Daddy" was the first Elvis 45, I believe where Billboard gave the A-side ("Don't Cry Daddy") the chart ranking and gave the B-side an F, meaning the flip side was being played and accounting for sales. And again, that was a practice I didn't see Billboard use for any other double sided hit record, just Elvis'. I think Billboard feared Elvis having another double sided hit where both sides would make it to number one. And I think they intentionally stunted the chart action on Elvis' 45s. Many of Elvis' records in the late 60s and all during the 70s were double sided hits. The curious thing about "Don't Cry Daddy" and "Rubberneckin'" was that one side was a big hit on the east coast and the other side was a big hit on the west coast. That was unique among Elvis' double sided hit records. I believe that was another Elvis 45 where possibly both sides should've been a number one, but with the uniqueness of that 45 on radio airplay, it could've affected the chart placement. |
|
|
|
Post by goldie on Oct 25, 2016 21:40:25 GMT -5
Elvis Presley's granddaughter
sorry, I know it's off topic |
|
|
|
Post by the Scribe on Nov 28, 2016 20:28:42 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Nov 29, 2016 16:33:12 GMT -5
Re: FBI video: wasn't aware the FBI could determine from a DNA test that a person was no longer living or that they just recently died. Regarding the aged Elvis I'm looking at while typing this up, that's actually game show host and rock-country singer-songwriter-musician Chuck Woolery. He had a minor hit in the 60s with a group called the Avant Garde, a song he wrote and sang called "Naturally Stoned." He also wrote songs for other artists, including Tammy Wynette among others. As much of an Elvis fan as I am, there are others who are off on the deep end about Elvis still being alive. Some of them should get professional help.
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Nov 29, 2016 19:31:23 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
Yes. Elvis hasn't been in the building for thirty-nine years now (YIPE!!).
Re. pairing of "Don't Cry Daddy" + "Rubberneckin'":
I don't doubt that a certain amount of, how shall we say, finagling of the charts on the part of Billboard may have kept "Don't Cry Daddy" from becoming another #1 for Elvis; it was certainly a heart-wrenching ballad of which he was as capable of as all the rock and roll he could muster. That said, though, there were a lot of great songs on the Hot 100 during this period around Christmas 1969 and into the first month of 1970.
And not that it necessarily matters, but when I mentioned that "Don't Cry Daddy" peaked at #6 on the Hot 100, which happened for the week ending January 31, 1970, you know which artist and song kept it just out of the Top 5? Sir Tom Jones' recording of the Clyde McPhatter R&B classic "Without Love (There Is Nothing)", which Elvis himself recorded with Chips Moman's American Studios crew.
"Don't Cry Daddy" also hit #3 on the Easy Listening chart, and #13 on the C&W chart; and #9 on the other side of the Atlantic in the UK.
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Nov 29, 2016 22:07:12 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker: Yes. Elvis hasn't been in the building for thirty-nine years now (YIPE!!). And every year, some of these so called fans claim they just know Elvis is going to come out of hiding and resume his musical career. Even though if Elvis was still alive, he'd be 81 and not very likely to resume a singing career. I also question some of them about the two young girls who were killed by a drunk driver in Memphis when they were there to see his funeral. How in their minds would Elvis have justified faking his death so he could hide from the public, yet two girls lost their lives because he faked his death? Elvis wouldn't have done that to any of his fans for all of the records he sold in the world. Just like he didn't die of an overdose in Memphis because his daughter was with him when he died. He wouldn't have done that to her. Some people just don't realize how callous they sound when they claim Elvis is still alive. And as Joe Esposito, who died last week, said, Elvis loved music so much he couldn't have stayed away from the music. He lived and breathed music. He wouldn't have stayed away four decades if he was still living. The fanatical of Elvis fans just don't see that.
Re. pairing of "Don't Cry Daddy" + "Rubberneckin'":
And not that it necessarily matters, but when I mentioned that "Don't Cry Daddy" peaked at #6 on the Hot 100, which happened for the week ending January 31, 1970, you know which artist and song kept it just out of the Top 5? Sir Tom Jones' recording of the Clyde McPhatter R&B classic "Without Love (There Is Nothing)", which Elvis himself recorded with Chips Moman's American Studios crew.Strictly speaking, Elvis wasn't the only artist still charting with double sided hits in 1969. The Beatles scored with different chart positions for "Get Back" and "Don't Let Me Down," and for "Something" and "Come Together." The Monkees' original 60s chart run was almost done, but even a couple of their 45s featured both sides charting: "Someday Man" and "Listen to the Band," and "Good Clean Fun" and "Mommy and Daddy" - the last two songs being written by Nesmith ("Good Clean Fun") and Dolenz ("Mommy and Daddy"). And there were double sided hits in the 70s that had different chart positions, and Billboard claimed they had no bias against Elvis. It's funny about the song "Without Love." Many cite that song as the one Sam Phillips tried to get Elvis to do a good job on at Sun. It wasn't the same song but a different song with the same title. The story still gets repeated although it's false. I liked Tom's version of the song when it was released, but over the years I've come to like Elvis' version better. I'm surprised Elvis didn't do more of Clyde McPhatter's material. McPhatter was an influence on Elvis and he actually wrote a few songs for Elvis using another name. The end of the 60s and the early 70s was a period when Elvis could almost do no wrong musically. And he was a workhorse in the recording studio through 1973, recording almost ten albums worth of material. (Maybe more, if they locate session tapes reportedly missing from the archives.) No need to bring up you know who as the reason Elvis lost interest in the studio. But, all of Elvis' recordings - A and B-sides that were being played - deserved better chart rankings than what Billboard gave them. |
|
