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Post by erik on Jun 10, 2016 22:07:37 GMT -5
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Post by Belle on Jun 11, 2016 14:34:59 GMT -5
Growing up, my primary musical obsessions were Linda Ronstadt and Led Zeppelin. An odd combination to be sure, but I consistently bought all their albums as they were released, and I still love every song. I don't care if they sang or "sampled" other people's songs. They made them beautiful and they owned them.
When it comes to music and writing songs, "there is nothing new under the sun". Everything comes from what has gone before. Even the song Taurus starts out like Adagio for Strings (1936), and has similarities to other songs as well. The descending arpeggio of the guitar on Taurus is similar to the ascending arpeggio of the guitar on Stairway, but that is where the similarities end.
Back in those days I don't think there was precedence for lawsuits of this kind, that would keep them from using or paying homage to other songs they heard. Even the record companies did not object to Dazed and Confused being recorded and put on an album without giving Jake Holmes credit. They are judging something that happened in the 60's and 70's by today's more sophisticated legal culture and standards, and I think that is wrong.
The Spirit camp is basing this lawsuit on the fact that they shared a festival stage with Led Zeppelin in their early careers. But I highly doubt Spirit played Taurus there, as it was never released as a single, and would have required quite a string section to do it justice.
Whether they played Taurus in the presence of Jimmy Page or not, is unsure. Still, it does not matter to me. Jimmy Page's studio discipline, creativity, and experience speaks for itself. He has enough talent to hold his own as a songwriter and performer.
The Led Zeppelin camp only needs to read through the comments at the bottom of that article to mount their defense.
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Post by sliderocker on Jun 12, 2016 12:08:03 GMT -5
The Spirit camp is basing this lawsuit on the fact that they shared a festival stage with Led Zeppelin in their early careers. But I highly doubt Spirit played Taurus there, as it was never released as a single, and would have required quite a string section to do it justice. Whether they played Taurus in the presence of Jimmy Page or not, is unsure. Still, it does not matter to me. Jimmy Page's studio discipline, creativity, and experience speaks for itself. He has enough talent to hold his own as a songwriter and performer. The Led Zeppelin camp only needs to read through the comments at the bottom of that article to mount their defense. This story was mentioned on the news when it was announced the lawsuit could go forward, and I think it was mentioned Spirit had indeed played "Taurus" at the concert. In order to prove plagiarism of a song, one has to prove the plagiarizer had access of some kind to have heard the first song and copied it. George Harrison only vaguely remembered the Chiffons song "He's So Fine" yet he was found guilty of plagiarizing that song for his song "My Sweet Lord." Ray Parker Jr. was sued over his theme song for "Ghostbusters" by Huey Lewis, who said the song was a rip of his song "I Want a New Drug." I believe Lewis was likewise successful. The Rolling Stones avoided a plagiarism lawsuit when Mick Jagger came up with a song called "Has Anyone Seen My Baby" and handed it over to Keith Richard, who noticed right away the song was a rip of K.D. Lang's "Constant Craving." And before the Rolling Stones released their song, they contacted Lang and the cowriter of the song, got their okays and included their names on the writing credits. The irony of plagiarism cases is that they are usually brought about by unsuccessful songwriters who'll hear a song by an artist with a melody similar to their own song. And they'll sue, thinking they have been ripped off and are being ripped on millions in unpaid royalties. But, again, it goes back that the onus is on the plaintiff and their attorneys to prove the songwriter (or songwriters) had access to the plaintiff's songs. A jury found the Bee Gees guilty of stealing Robert Selle's melody for "Don't Let It End" for their song "How Deep Is Your Love," but the verdict was overturned because although the two melodies were similar, the plaintiff had not presented any evidence to show how the Bee Gees - who didn't accept any outside songs because as songwriters, they were self-sufficient and didn't need outside songs - had heard Selle's song. The Bee Gees' song was also written in France in 1976 and the group had only recently established residences in Florida. But, they still did not accept outside songs. Another plagiarism case I remember hearing about but not the outcome involved Stevie Nicks on her song "Sara." But, on that song, it wasn't the melody but the song's lyrics. Apparently, the unsuccessful songwriter's song had about 20 lines of lyrics that were heard in Stevie's song, including the lyrics "drowning in the sea of love/where everyone would love to drown" and "you're the poet in my heart." I rather imagine the proof for lyrics is the same as it is for the melody: you have to prove access. It's not enough that two songs are similar. And songwriters can't sue over chords or chord progressions or titles, just the melody or the lyrics. But, in the case of Spirit and the estate of Randy California vs Led Zeppelin or Jimmy Page and Robert Plant, Page and company may end up on the losing end, which would be extremely ironic. In the late 70s, there was a group called Little Roger and the Goosebumps who mashed the lyrics from the theme to "Gilligan's Island" with Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven," and called it "Stairway to Gilligan's Island." Led Zeppelin and their management threatened a lawsuit if the record wasn't pulled, which was ironic as it was on a local label and not likely to be a hit at all. Led Zeppelin called more attention to the record and interest in it than if they had just left it alone. Spirit had a higher profile in the 60s and early 70s and the fact the case is proceeding suggests there may be enough evidence to suggest and support plagiarism. But, it still has to be proven and the fact both Spirit and Led Zeppelin had higher profiles, had played on the same stage the same day, and Randy California was not an unknown songwriter at the time will make it difficult for Page and Plant. As said, they could end up losing. |
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Post by the Scribe on Jun 12, 2016 18:21:02 GMT -5
Psychedelic Music is probably my most favorite genre of music. I do remember the group and their hit song. Some of the others received minor regional airplay.
If you listen you can see how Zep borrowed QUITE LIBERALLY from them as they have done with other artists music.
The Best Song Rip-Off Compilation Ever
Are these blatant rip-offs, coincidences, homages, or do they sound nothing alike?
SONG LIST:
Chuck Berry - "Sweet Little Sixteen"
The Beach Boys - "Surfin' USA"
T-Rex - "Get It On (Bang a Gong)"
Oasis - "Cigarettes & Alcohol"
The Kinks - "Picture Book"
Green Day - "Warning"
Led Zeppelin - "Going to California"
Pearl Jam - "Given to Fly"
Joe Jackson - "Is She Really Going Out With Him?"
The Raconteurs - "Steady, As She Goes"
Huey Lewis and the News - "I Want a New Drug"
Ray Parker Jr. - "Ghostbusters"
Gob - "Give Up The Grudge"
Marinas Trench - "Shake Tramp"
The Datsuns - "In Love"
The Marble Index - "I Believe"
Madonna - "Express Yourself"
Lady Gaga - "Born This Way"
The Cars - "Just What I Needed"
Fountains of Wayne - "Stacey's Mom"
Tom Petty - "Last Dance With Mary Jane"
Red Hot Chili Peppers - "Dani California"
Spacehog - "In the Meantime"
See Spot Run - "Weightless"
Kelly Clarkson - "Behind These Hazel Eyes"
Fefe Dobson - "Stuttering"
Nirvana - "Stay Away"
Stone Temple Pilots - "Between the Lines"
R. Kelly - "Ignition"
Akon - "Don't Matter"
The Rubinoos - "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend"
Avril Lavigne - "Girlfriend"
Chicago - "25 or 6 to 4"
Green Day - "Brain Stew"
The Jam - "In the City"
The Sex Pistols - "Holidays in the Sun"
The Damned - "Life Goes On"
Killing Joke - "Eighties"
Nirvana - "Come As You Are"
J.J. Fad - "Supersonic"
Fergie - "Fergalicious"
Stereophonics - "Same Size Feet"
Oasis - "The Hindu Times"
The Beatles - "Norwegian Wood"
Bob Dylan - "4th Time Around"
The Beatles - "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da"
The Offspring - "Why Don't You Get a Job?"
The Smashing Pumpkins - "Today"
Bif Naked - "Daddy's Getting Married"
Feeder - "High"
The Smashing Pumpkins - "Mayonaise"
(These last two should be in reverse order -- obviously I didn't mean to suggest that Billy Corgan stole his vocal style and/or a lyric from FEEDER.)
Hoobastank - "The Reason"
Sum 41 - "Best of Me"
Yellowcard - "Only One"
Sum 41 - "With Me"
Coldplay - "The Scientist"
Sum 41 - "Pieces"
Coldplay - "Clocks"
Seo In-Young - "Anymore"
Neil Diamond - "Cherry Cherry"
The Romantics - "What I Like About You"
* Minor Threat - "Good Guys (Don't Wear White)"
** The Rolling Stones - "Shake Your Hips"
ZZ Top - "La Grange"
Chris Isaak - "Baby Did a Bad Bad Thing"
Iggy Pop - "Lust for Life"
Jet - "Are You Gonna Be My Girl?"
Rush "By-Tor & the Snow Dog"
The Smashing Pumpkins - "Cherub Rock"
Spirit - "Taurus"
Led Zeppelin - "Stairway to Heaven"
* This is a cover of a song by The Standells; the video shows The Vaccines.
** "Shake Your Hips" was actually written by American bluesman Slim Harpo. The rhythm has since been borrowed by several artists.
FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY.
THANK YOU YOUTUBE FOR THE CLIPS.
Jimmy Page: How Stairway to Heaven was written - BBC News
Did Led Zeppelin rip off Spirit's song Taurus in Stairway to Heaven?
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Post by Belle on Jun 13, 2016 2:43:55 GMT -5
Gotta love social media, so many comments on this story in various places on the web are linking other songs that incorporated those 4 bars of progression (which I still can't believe anyone thinks they can really own/copyright):
Davey Graham - Cry Me A River 1958
And this beautiful song from the 1600's, these 4 bars start at :30 seconds in.
Even Johnny Rivers - Summer Rain 1968
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Post by goldie on Jun 18, 2016 20:09:56 GMT -5
Led Zeppelin's Page dodges court questions, riffs air guitar
In this July 13, 1985 file photo, singer Robert Plant, left, and guitarist Jimmy Page of the British rock band Led Zeppelin perform at the Live Aid concert at Philadelphia's J.F.K. Stadium. Generations of aspiring guitarists have tried to copy the riff from Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven." Starting Tuesday, June 14, 2016, a Los Angeles court will try to decide whether the members of Led Zeppelin themselves ripped off that riff. Page and Plant are named as defendants in the lawsuit brought by the trustee of late guitarist Randy Wolfe from the band Spirit. (AP Photo/Rusty Kennedy, File) syndication.ap.org
LOS ANGELES (AP) - Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page demonstrated a deft touch at deflecting questions aimed at showing he might have lifted a passage for the introduction to the 1971 hit "Stairway to Heaven."
Testifying in his defense Thursday in a copyright infringement case, Page showed little interest in comparing his composition with the obscure earlier instrumental work in question, "Taurus," by the late Randy Wolfe, founder of the band Spirit.
Page was reluctant to compare the harmony, tempo or structure of the two songs, thwarting the lawyer representing Wolfe's estate in the lawsuit against Led Zeppelin, Page and singer Robert Plant, as well as several music companies.
"You want to step through it," attorney Francis Malofiy asked as he tried to get Page to discuss the "Taurus" sheet music, which is the work protected by copyright.
"Not necessarily," Page replied, sending a ripple of comic relief through the gallery during an otherwise dull day of testimony in the case.
Page, 72, had entered the courtroom carrying a guitar, but wrapped up testifying without playing a note. The closest he came was during a break when he briefly struck a jamming pose and played air guitar and laughed with Plant in the courtroom.
Jurors and a packed audience in Los Angeles federal court did get to hear the familiar opening chords of "Stairway," but they came not from Page, but from an expert who said he found it strikingly similar to "Taurus."
Kevin Hanson, a guitar instructor and former member of Huffamoose, played passages from both songs on acoustic guitar and says they are virtually identical. When listening to videos of the two played simultaneously, he said there was nothing discordant about them.
"To my ear, they sound like they are one piece of music," he said.
On cross-examination, however, Hanson, who doesn't have a college degree and is not a musicologist, said he can easily tell the songs apart.
Another plaintiff expert, Alexander Stewart, a music professor at the University of Vermont, said he found five categories in which both songs had significant similarities, including a descending chord progression, notes lasting the same duration and a series of arpeggios and similar pairs of notes.
Stewart said the descending chord progression and other elements have been found in songs dating to the 1600s. But he testified that of more than 65 songs the defense has said have a similar construction, including "My Funny Valentine," the Beatles' "Michelle," and "Chim Chim Cher-ee" from the movie "Mary Poppins," none contained all five elements shared by "Taurus" and "Stairway."
"Not one of them came close," Stewart said, though he acknowledged on cross-examination that the notes in both songs didn't all line up in the same places.
The plaintiffs are expected to wrap up their case Friday with estate trustee, Michael Skidmore, concluding testimony and a financial expert taking the stand.
Malofiy tried unsuccessfully to introduce evidence of a $60 million deal Led Zeppelin signed for the rights to its catalog, but the judge wouldn't allow it because it was from 2008 and extends beyond the statute of limitations.
Page, wearing a suit, tie and his white hair pulled back in a ponytail, was asked about several contracts. Peering through his reading spectacles, he was asked to read the title on the document.
"Confidential," he said as the courtroom erupted with laughter.
One of the biggest challenges for the plantiffs is showing that "Stairway" is substantially similar to the sheet music for "Taurus" because that's what's filed at the U.S. Copyright Office.
The recording of "Taurus," which contains a riff very similar to the opening of "Stairway" is significantly different from videos of experts playing the sheet music.
Because the recording is not protected by the copyright, jurors can't consider it and it can't be played in court.
Malofiy tried several times to get Page, who said he never heard "Taurus" until comparisons began popping up online a few years ago, to compare the two songs. Page's lawyer successfully objected and the question was never answered.
However, when Page was asked to compare "Stairway" to the "Taurus" sheet music, he said he preferred to hear it.
"I'm asking if I can hear what was played," he said, knowing he couldn't.
To demonstrate the shortcomings of sheet music, though, Malofiy showed Page the copyright version of "Stairway to Heaven."
Page, who said he composed the music and Plant wrote the lyrics, said he had not written the sheet music he was shown.
It begins with the opening lyrics, "There's a lady who's sure/All that glitters is gold," eliminating the famous instrumental introduction that lasts nearly a minute.
"It's not there," Page said.
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Post by the Scribe on Jun 19, 2016 15:10:40 GMT -5
I love both songs and wish someone would do a seamless mashup. Jay Ferguson who was in the band Spirit recorded one of my favorites on his own called Thunder Island. Here is a good excuse to play it:
And this great song is reminiscent of that song (note the intro reference lol)
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Post by erik on Jun 19, 2016 18:29:05 GMT -5
"Lonely Boy" came first, by the way (in March 1977); "Thunder Island" came in January 1978.
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Post by the Scribe on Jun 19, 2016 19:33:30 GMT -5
"Lonely Boy" came first, by the way (in March 1977); "Thunder Island" came in January 1978. Both were released (on the charts) in 77. I am pretty sure about that. |
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Post by the Scribe on Jun 19, 2016 23:25:12 GMT -5
Listen to the intros to both of these songs:
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Post by rick on Jun 20, 2016 4:26:00 GMT -5
Rob, there was also this twosome. I don't believe that George Harrison intentionally did this.
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Post by the Scribe on Jun 20, 2016 15:14:41 GMT -5
Led Zep has lifted a bit more than most but in doing so has usually improved the product. Still, not sure how far you can go before it is theft. In the arts there seems to be a liberal policy of stealing licks as Linda would say. It would be interesting to hear her thoughts on this as she is so knowledgeable on matters of music.
Led Zeppelin Asks Judge to Stop ‘Stairway to Heaven’ Trial With Victory in Band’s Favor
The Hollywood Reporter 10 minutes ago .
By Eriq Gardner
The “Stairway to Heaven” trial – the one examining if Led Zeppelin lifted its famous song from Spirit’s 1967 instrumental “Taurus” – hasn’t yet made it to the chorus of a jury’s deliberations. However, on Monday, attorneys for Jimmy Page, Robert Plant and Warner Music urged U.S. District Judge R. Gary Klausner to halt the proceedings now because the plaintiff hasn’t established the elements of copyright infringement.
The move comes after Michael Skidmore, the trustee who manages the estate of songwriter Randy Wolfe, rested his case after three days of testimony. The plaintiff, represented by attorney Francis Malofiy, played the two songs and tried to pin Page down on hearing “Taurus” before composing “Stairway to Heaven.” Led Zeppelin’s guitarist testified that he hadn’t heard “Taurus” until a few years ago and also refused to accept the two works are similar.
‘Stairway to Heaven’ Trial: Led Zeppelin Bassist John Paul Jones Testifies for Bandmates
It’s now Led Zeppelin’s turn to present their own case, but before the trial possibly resumes on Tuesday, the judge is being asked to make a judgment as a matter of law.
In a motion made today, the defendants argue that copyright claims fail because the copyright registration of “Taurus” hasn’t been put into evidence, that the Wolfe Trustee does not own that copyright, and also that the plaintiff has not presented admissible evidence of Led Zeppelin’s access to “Taurus” nor evidence of striking or substantial similarity between the musical compositions.
When Judge Klausner decided to deny a summary judgment motion, he spelled out what would be triable issues.
Led Zeppelin Works Earn Nearly $60M Over Past 5 Years, Economist Testifies
“Although the parties’ pre-trial filings identified what plaintiff Michael Skidmore needed to prove to establish his claims, Skidmore failed to prove required elements of his claims for direct, contributory and vicarious copyright infringement,” states the defendants being led by attorney Peter J. Anderson.
Anderson says it’s not enough that Skidmore only submitted at trial a claimed printout of a summary of the 1996 renewal registration. Where’s the 1967 copyright registration? And who really owns “Taurus”?
Pointing to Skidmore’s testimony about Wolfe’s songwriter’s agreement, the defendants argue that Wolfe “assigned his renewal rights to Hollenbeck” and thus Hollenbeck, not Skidmore, owns the composition. “Further, since Skidmore abandoned his prior beneficial ownership claim, he has no basis to sue and judgment is proper in defendants’ favor,” the papers add.
If Klausner gets past arguments of non-ownership of “Taurus,” the judge will also have to decide whether there’s enough evidence to let a jury decide the Wolfe song has been infringed. The crucial factor here is access – something that didn’t come up in the “Blurred Lines” copyright case because Marvin Gaye was so popular that Pharrell Williams and Robin Thicke conceded the issue.
'Stairway to Heaven’ Trial: Judge Strikes Led Zeppelin Music Expert Request
Here, Led Zeppelin say that the witnesses testifying thus far – including Wolfe’s sister, Sprit’s bassist Mark Andes and one of Skidmore’s friends – haven’t told the jury they saw members of Led Zeppelin at a Spirit concert when “Taurus” was performed. The band adds, “And, while – nearly a half century later – Mr. Page found Spirit’s first album in his collection of 4,329 albums and 5,882 CDs, there is no evidence he had the album 45 years ago.”
The other arguments being tossed to the judge – no substantial similarity, failure to present evidence of actual damages or defendants’ profits – are probably ones that won’t end the case. But given that Klausner has made it a point of emphasis that the copyright at issue pertains to elements of the composition and not any of the sound recordings – who knows? If Led Zeppelin can’t bring a halt to the trial now, the band will not only made these arguments of non-ownership, a lack of access and insufficient similarity in the coming days directly to the jury, they are expected to bring musicologists and possibly Page and Plant to the witness stand to talk about how what’s claimed to have been stolen is generic and not protected by copyright law.
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Post by the Scribe on Jun 21, 2016 16:51:02 GMT -5
Was Hotel California based on a Jethro Tull song?
Songfacts: Your song "We Used To Know" is certainly an influence on "Hotel California." Can you talk about that?
Ian: It was a piece of music that we were playing around the time… I believe it was late '71, maybe early '72 when we were on tour and we had a support band who had been signed up for the tour, and subsequently, before the tour began, had a hit single. The song, I believe, called "Take It Easy." And they were indeed the Eagles. We didn't interact with them very much because they were countrified laid back polite rock, and we were a bit wacky and English and doing weird stuff. And I don't think they liked us, and we didn't much like them. There was no communication, really, at all. Just a polite observance of each other's space when it came to sound checks and show time. But they probably heard us play the song, because that would have featured in the sets back then, and maybe it was just something they kind of picked up on subconsciously, and introduced that chord sequence into their famous song "Hotel California" sometime later. But, you know, it's not plagiarism. It's just the same chord sequence. It's in a different time signature, different key, different context. And it's a very, very fine song that they wrote, so I can't feel anything other than a sense of happiness for their sake. And I feel flattered that they came across that chord sequence. But it's difficult to find a chord sequence that hasn't been used, and hasn't been the focus of lots of pieces of music. It's harmonic progression is almost a mathematical certainty you're gonna crop up with the same thing sooner or later if you sit strumming a few chords on a guitar.
There's certainly no bitterness or any sense of plagiarism attached to my view on it, although I do sometimes allude, in a joking way, to accepting it as a kind of tribute. It's a bit like this tribute Rolex that I'm wearing.
Here it is:
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Post by the Scribe on Jun 21, 2016 20:42:00 GMT -5
This one is amazing and funny:
The most stolen song in the history of music: Journey.
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Post by Dianna on Jun 22, 2016 13:33:32 GMT -5
Stealers Wheel.. Stuck in The Middle With you..
Sheryl Crowe All I Wanna Do.
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Post by the Scribe on Jun 23, 2016 15:53:00 GMT -5
CASE DISMISSED
But let's face it. Few artists in music history have borrowed as liberally as Led Zeppelin.
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Post by Dianna on Jun 23, 2016 21:30:35 GMT -5
CASE DISMISSED
But let's face it. Few artists in music history have borrowed as liberally as Led Zeppelin. Okay but this one has always bugged me .. Rosalita by Springsteen Blues Traveler.. Run around (in certain parts of the song. especially the chorus and also near the end) |
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Post by Belle on Jun 24, 2016 7:21:38 GMT -5
This lawsuit and all of the "rip-offs & thieves" articles had me backtracking on my favorite rock band, wondering if my worship was unfounded. But having studied and compared the songs in question, I am not swayed in my admiration.
Led Zeppelin band members have written, recorded, and produced 87 songs. On 5 of them the songwriting credits have now been altered due to legal action from artists by whom they've openly admitted to having been influenced. If you compare those 5 songs to the Led Zep versions, only 3 really stand out as legitimate challenges imo. Still, that hardly negates the talent or success of this band. Stairway would have been #6, but I'm so glad they won...
And yea, I've seen comparisons of a few more of their songs to others, but their likenesses are as far fetched as this Stairway comparison is, so they've never been challenged legally, and likely won't ever now that this case was lost. I hope this is truly the end of it.
I guess you could say every song ever written should include the previous songwriter's work that inspired it--if you could remember who it was. And even that previous songwriter was influenced by a previous songwriter too so...
The songs in our heads come from all the music that has gone thru it before. It's only when you produce a hit song that generates significant revenue, that any comparison large or small, will be brought to light.
And kudos to Ian Anderson for being flattered by Hotel California, being realistic, and telling it like it is. That comparison is also sweeping thru the internet lately. The music in Hotel was Don Felder's only real claim to Eagles fame... With any luck, this will knock his ego down a few pegs...
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dedindi
A Number and a Name
Posts: 1
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Post by dedindi on Sept 23, 2018 2:22:00 GMT -5
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