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Post by erik on Oct 9, 2014 9:07:58 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker re. the Moody Blues:
As we know, the critics use a lot of excuses. But utilizing real orchestral instrumentation and incorporating it into the fabric of songs like "Nights In White Satin" or "Tuesday Afternoon" the way the group did, in a way that I think sometimes recalls composers like Brahms, Debussy, or Gustav Holst ("The Planets"), shouldn't be a crime. The trick is not to drown it in artistic pretension, and I think the Moody Blues avoided doing that in their best work in a way that critics either ignored or willfully chose to ignore.
Quote by rick re. Linda's induction:
Certainly I wouldn't put it down, given how impressive the tribute segment for Linda was, with the impressive line-up of her fellow female thespians there to salute her; and yes, I do think her own achievements had a great deal to do with it. Maybe I had been just too jaded and cynical over the years to think of this honor as anything other than something they had to do unless they were sadomasochistic enough to be accused of honoring the recently deceased.
And as I've said, as much as Linda would not like to think of herself strictly as a rock and roll artist, because she has also done all the styles that led to rock and roll's birth in the first place, she does deserve the honor without question.
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Post by Richard W on Oct 9, 2014 9:33:43 GMT -5
Thanks, Slide, for the extensive Monkees breakdown. Very enlightening. I never knew any of that!
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Post by sliderocker on Oct 9, 2014 15:49:49 GMT -5
As we know, the critics use a lot of excuses. But utilizing real orchestral instrumentation and incorporating it into the fabric of songs like "Nights In White Satin" or "Tuesday Afternoon" the way the group did, in a way that I think sometimes recalls composers like Brahms, Debussy, or Gustav Holst ("The Planets"), shouldn't be a crime.
Mixing classical and rock shouldn't be a crime and should never be considered a crime. I don't recall the critics getting up in arms when certain artists started mixing rock and country together. Nor do I recall anything being said when a few artists mixed rock with jazz. I don't know what it was about the mixing of classical and rock that was a turn off for critics. Maybe it was that some of the classical artists, fans and critics looked down on rock but then, jazz had its artists, fans and critics who disliked rock. And rock had very few supporters in the country genre and most country artists hated rock with a passion. But, the mixing of the genres was innovation and demostrated all the genres were never all that far removed from one another.
The trick is not to drown it in artistic pretension, and I think the Moody Blues avoided doing that in their best work in a way that critics either ignored or willfully chose to ignore.
There were a large number of solo artists and bands whose music was full of artistic pretensions in that they thought every song was a work of art, that every lyric sung was a pearl of wisdom that had to be shared with the masses. Just because they were a successful rock artist, they thought that lofty perch made them a statesman qualified to tell others how to live or what to think. The Moody Blues were never in that category although their songs had messages in them. But, their messages were more spiritual in nature and self-reflective in nature rather than preachy confrontation. And I think that critics willfully ignored them because they didn't want to use their music to preach. And I think the path they chose was the correct one as one can listen to any of their songs and the majority are not tied to the decades in which they were recorded. The same can't be said about the pretentious artists whose songs reflected the times in which they were recorded, making them outdated the moment they were recorded, much less released.
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Post by sliderocker on Oct 9, 2014 16:23:28 GMT -5
Thanks, Slide, for the extensive Monkees breakdown. Very enlightening. I never knew any of that! You're welcome, Richard. The Monkees' story is one of the more interesting and strangest stories in rock and roll and they deserve to be nominated for the R&RHoF and deserve to be inducted. Jann Wenner is on the wrong side of musical history on the issue of the Monkees, not to mention being the biggest hypocrite over their tv origins. Sure, it was true but one only needs to compare them to Rick Nelson. Nelson's musical career also started in tv and like the Monkees, he was also limited to vocals only in the recording studio. Which was only because, he admitted, to not knowing how to actually play the guitar. Nelson eventually learned the guitar and played on his recordings. Of the Monkees, only Davy Jones did not know how to play a musical instrument at the time but even that would change in a short time. Nesmith and Tork were multi-instrumentalists. Nelson also asserted himself in the recording studio as to what he would and would not record, which the Monkees would also do. Wenner shouldn't be able to use his basic excuses (not playing, started on tv, et al) because none of them were used in Rick Nelson's case to disqualify him. The only thing that needs to be disqualified is Wenner and his excuses and those who follow his lead.
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Post by moon on Oct 9, 2014 21:31:14 GMT -5
Quote by moon: And Heart, which was inducted in 2013. But I would have to add that I think Linda's induction this year hinged on the specter of her having come down with Parkinson's, and the abject fear that the powers-that-be involved in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame had about having to deal with accusations of cruelty in delaying Donna Summer's induction until she was dead. As much as I'd like to think Linda's career stats had something to do with it, I'm under no illusions that they likely wouldn't have done this at all if not for the Parkinson's diagnosis, and the fear of another dead female artist scandal. good for Heart too. I was never much of a fan of theirs but can understand why they would get the recognition. what a bunch of political, personal bias crap with the RRHOF nominations. Sucks that talent and influence aren't the only things that count!!! Thanks for the insights. Go Moody Blues and Stevie Nicks. Hard to believe neither of them is the RRHOF.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 9:12:18 GMT -5
Stevie is in the HOF as part of Fleetwood Mac, and no one can dispute her contribution....
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Post by erik on Oct 10, 2014 9:23:13 GMT -5
Quote by moon:
.
Well the "infinite wisdom" of Jann Wenner keeps shutting them out, while he lets Madonna and Guns N Roses in--two of the worst inductees in the RRHOF's checkered history (IMHO).
One I hope they never let in, under any circumstance: "Uncle" Ted Nugent. F**k him!
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Post by sliderocker on Oct 10, 2014 11:24:22 GMT -5
Well the "infinite wisdom" of Jann Wenner keeps shutting them out, while he lets Madonna and Guns N Roses in--two of the worst inductees in the RRHOF's checkered history (IMHO). One I hope they never let in, under any circumstance: "Uncle" Ted Nugent. F**k him! On the inclusion of Madonna, she probably has been an influential artist but if sticking to a strict definition as to who is and isn't rock, she wouldn't be rock. But, then, neither would the majority of artists who are in the hall. And Madonna probably meets all of the other criteria the hall has. I can't say the same for Guns N Roses on any of the criteria. Again, when the hall claims an artist is influential, they should be required to name the other artists who have cited the artist in question as an influence. If the hall was to ever induct "Uncle" Ted Nugent, I'd hope there would be such a revulsion to his induction that it would be enough to put them out of business. But, in all seriousness, I don't think they ever would because of all the negativity he has drawn to himself. That's being influential in reverse! Nugent is such an embarrassment and people tend to not want to be in the same room and as far away from the someone like Nugent, less others think they share the same views. I think the hall would have to be aware that inducting Nugent would cost them a lot of business. And the name of their game is to make money and all of Nugent's supporters couldn't make up for whatever business the hall would lose in inducting him. So Nugent would probably only be inducted the day hell literally freezes over.
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Post by erik on Oct 10, 2014 12:23:27 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
And beyond his extreme right-wing politics and love of guns, what has he really done that warrants induction, anyway? "Cat Scratch Fever", in 1977? "Journey To The Center Of The Mind", with the Amboy Dukes, in 1968? That's just two lousy hits, neither of which got very high into the Top 40. Sure he's had Platinum albums, but those were in the late 70s and early 80s; since becoming a gun nut and a spokesman for the Right, what has he done for rock and roll itself? And whom has he influenced even as a so-called "guitar hero"?
There's no there there, so to speak. "Uncle Ted" doesn't deserve even minute consideration, regardless of what side of the political fence one is on.
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Post by moon on Oct 10, 2014 14:40:24 GMT -5
I am loving all the Ted Nugent comments!!! In high school i was forced (a bit strong but felt like force) to go to a Ted Nugent( do i have to capitalize his name) concert with a friends brother and his buddy. Aboum. 20 minutes into the concert my friend looks at me and says" holy sh**t this is terrible lets leave" and we did. 20 minutes was all we could take . And he is a complete nut job about guns
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Post by sliderocker on Oct 10, 2014 15:28:03 GMT -5
And beyond his extreme right-wing politics and love of guns, what has he really done that warrants induction, anyway? "Cat Scratch Fever", in 1977? "Journey To The Center Of The Mind", with the Amboy Dukes, in 1968? That's just two lousy hits, neither of which got very high into the Top 40. Sure he's had Platinum albums, but those were in the late 70s and early 80s; since becoming a gun nut and a spokesman for the Right, what has he done for rock and roll itself? And whom has he influenced even as a so-called "guitar hero"? There's no there there, so to speak. "Uncle Ted" doesn't deserve even minute consideration, regardless of what side of the political fence one is on. Nutty Nugent has never done anything I'm aware that would qualify him as worthy for the R&RHoF. I can't think of any singer or musician who has named him as an influence on their music. Then again, I do think the R&RHoF does have artists whose only influential qualifications were they were well liked by the critics. I actually quite liked "Journey to the Center of the Mind" back when it was released but the fact that Teddy Boy was part of that song makes it hard to listen to these days, even though he did not sing that song. Just played the guitar and cowrote it. So, he basically had one hit all to himself but nothing else. That's not much of a recommendation. He's not really a guitar hero as there's no way I'd place him in Clapton's league or Jimi Hendrix's league or studio session players like James Burton or singer Glen Campbell, who was also a member of the Wrecking Crew. Nugent played loud but for guitarists playing loud sometimes meant covering up the fact that one was not a great guitarist.
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Post by Dianna on Oct 15, 2014 12:19:59 GMT -5
Quote by moon: . Well the "infinite wisdom" of Jann Wenner keeps shutting them out, while he lets Madonna and Guns N Roses in--two of the worst inductees in the RRHOF's checkered history (IMHO). One I hope they never let in, under any circumstance: "Uncle" Ted Nugent. F**k him! I disagree..November Rain is one of the best rock ballads I've heard.. certainly better than anything Hall and Oats ever did.. To me they were always a cheesy top 40 band..
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Post by erik on Oct 15, 2014 14:37:04 GMT -5
Quote by dianna:
I guess this is one place where we have a difference of opinion. "November Rain" is just one song, and they more than make up for it with Axl's caterwauling of "Knockin' On Heaven's Door." Sorry, but my opinion of Guns N Roses being in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame stands.
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Post by Dianna on Oct 15, 2014 15:12:02 GMT -5
I guess this is one place where we have a difference of opinion. "November Rain" is just one song, and they more than make up for it with Axl's caterwauling of "Knockin' On Heaven's Door." Sorry, but my opinion of Guns N Roses being in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame stands. well that is only 1 song that you don't like, doesn't mean others don't like it or because it's a genre..heavy metal you personally don't care for, others think they are credible artists, obviously they are if they got in early..Personally, I could take or leave the song.. likewise with Linda I'm not madly in love with ALL of her songs. If in your opinion, guns n roses aren't legitimate rockers who are then? lol
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Post by erik on Oct 15, 2014 18:03:22 GMT -5
Quote by dianna:
G.N.R. are extensively played on classic rock radio down here in L.A., and they are an in-town band, so I've actually heard more of their stuff than just "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" ("Paradise City"; "Welcome To The Jungle", for example). But no, I'll freely admit I really can't stand them, and I haven't any idea who they have influenced that has come in their wake, which is part of the criteria for induction. Axl Rose just is a shrieker, and I'll submit that I'm not the only person on the forum who feels that way.
But I am not against heavy metal as a genre, not when you've got a legitimately great band in there in the form of Led Zeppelin, who were never just an ordinary bunch of head-bangers. There's one other heavy metal band that isn't in there and which I will submit to anybody has a history that makes Guns N Roses seem absolutely puny, and this would be Deep Purple, not only for "Smoke On The Water" (you'd be amazed how many Deep Purple fans use just that one song to justify the band's induction, with its familiar guitar riff), but also for "Hush", "Kentucky Woman" (yes, they covered Neil Diamond), and such albums as Machine Head, In Rock, and the landmark 1969 Concerto For Rock Group And Orchestra; this last one teamed them with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and composer/conductor Sir Malcolm Arnold, one of the first instances of a rock band teaming with a symphony orchestra.
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Post by Dianna on Oct 15, 2014 19:35:20 GMT -5
Quote by dianna: G.N.R. are extensively played on classic rock radio down here in L.A., and they are an in-town band, so I've actually heard more of their stuff than just "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" ("Paradise City"; "Welcome To The Jungle", for example). But no, I'll freely admit I really can't stand them, and I haven't any idea who they have influenced that has come in their wake, which is part of the criteria for induction. Axl Rose just is a shrieker, and I'll submit that I'm not the only person on the forum who feels that way. But I am not against heavy metal as a genre, not when you've got a legitimately great band in there in the form of Led Zeppelin, who were never just an ordinary bunch of head-bangers. There's one other heavy metal band that isn't in there and which I will submit to anybody has a history that makes Guns N Roses seem absolutely puny, and this would be Deep Purple, not only for "Smoke On The Water" (you'd be amazed how many Deep Purple fans use just that one song to justify the band's induction, with its familiar guitar riff), but also for "Hush", "Kentucky Woman" (yes, they covered Neil Diamond), and such albums as Machine Head, In Rock, and the landmark 1969 Concerto For Rock Group And Orchestra; this last one teamed them with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and composer/conductor Sir Malcolm Arnold, one of the first instances of a rock band teaming with a symphony orchestra. I don't know Erik.. there were many heavy metal bands who were influenced by GnR.. I'm sure of that. As far as the forum.. many of the members here are from Linda's era and typically prefer more mellow music of the 70's or 60's americana/country or pop singers. thats what i've noticed. . I don't think there are too many headbangers on here here. lol. unless I'm wrong. Deep Purple is a classic rock band and no doubt should be in.. they were before my time so I'm not too familiar with anything aside. "smoke on the water. It seems to me. many times on this forum any music that was made after 1980 gets a little snubbed .. especially after 1990.. forget it! which is why I won't mention the newer contemporary artists I like for fear of the thumbs down lol.. Sorry but I have to totally disagree with you but IMO they are very deserving.. Sweet Child o Mine.. when that song first came out, in L.A. they played it on the rnb stations too. I try to be open minded about music and also realize I'm getting older and as Linda says. the gene pool is there. young kids are still making good music..
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Post by erik on Oct 15, 2014 20:00:23 GMT -5
Quote by dianna:
The bizarre thing about GNR is that I was young enough when they were popular that I should have really gotten into their brand of head-banging, like every other teen in the late 80s, but I never did; and I feel that their lyrics are often so misogynistic, it makes me feel icky.
I suppose I am a tough customer, hard to please, even for someone who is now in his mid-40s, though I have more than talked up Caitlin Rose and Tift Merritt, both of whom are very much LR-influenced and both of whom are still young (Caitlin turned 27 this past June; Tift will turn 40 just after the turn of the new year).
To note: Sheryl Crow, another Ronstadt fan, who also saluted Linda in Brooklyn this past April, will soon be eligible for RRHOF induction, which I'd support.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Oct 16, 2014 8:50:35 GMT -5
well one thing can be said she got in on her first nomination. the issue was with the nominating committee as most know probably better than I even. jan wenner would have felt somewhat vindicated if she was nominated and didn't get in. the membership, mostly her peers in the music business, knew she deserved this way long ago. thank God for that. eddiejinnj
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Post by erik on Oct 16, 2014 9:09:40 GMT -5
Quote by eddieinnj:
So true.
And since Linda finally did get in, I still think we need some more womenfolk in there.
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Post by sliderocker on Oct 16, 2014 22:10:30 GMT -5
I don't know Erik.. there were many heavy metal bands who were influenced by GnR.. I'm sure of that. As far as the forum.. many of the members here are from Linda's era and typically prefer more mellow music of the 70's or 60's americana/country or pop singers. thats what i've noticed. . I don't think there are too many headbangers on here here. lol. unless I'm wrong. Deep Purple is a classic rock band and no doubt should be in.. they were before my time so I'm not too familiar with anything aside. "smoke on the water. It seems to me. many times on this forum any music that was made after 1980 gets a little snubbed .. especially after 1990.. forget it! which is why I won't mention the newer contemporary artists I like for fear of the thumbs down lol.. Sorry but I have to totally disagree with you but IMO they are very deserving.. Sweet Child o Mine.. when that song first came out, in L.A. they played it on the rnb stations too. I try to be open minded about music and also realize I'm getting older and as Linda says. the gene pool is there. young kids are still making good music.. I'm from Linda's era, that is, I was a kid and early teen in the 60s and late teens to mid 20s in the 70s, and being around to listen to the music of those eras was, well, I guess you could say my generation was spoiled. There was a lot of good music. The 60s were a more turbulent time and that was reflected in the music. It was such a creative time that it was never equaled in my opinion. That's not to put down the music from other eras but I think one reason there was so much creativity was the radio stations didn't have the narrowed playlists they started adhering to. The 70s had a lot of great music but that really was the start of the playlists with fewer and fewer songs. One radio station I listened to in the 60s was a Top 40 station, and they not only played all of the songs that were in the top 40, but their own list was a Top 100 playlist. They also played songs that were not in the Top 40 or their Top 100. Then, along came the 70s, and that list shrunk to the Top 25 in 1970 and then Top 20 as time went on. What happened? There was mellow music in the 60s and 70s, to be sure, but you also had hard rock groups like Steppenwolf and Iron Butterfly in the 60s, Deep Purple in the 60s and 70s (most people remember "Smoke on the Water" but don't remember Deep Purple's first hits were covers of Joe South's "Hush" and Neil Diamond's "Kentucky Woman"), Grand Funk Railroad and Foghat in the 70s. The early 70s were the soft rock singer-songwriter era whereas the mid to late 70s was the disco era. But, neither of those genres kept hard rock or heavy metal bands from scoring hits. For me, it's not that I snub the 80s or 90s music so much as I don't remember a lot of that music. It doesn't have anything to do with a band being hard rock or heavy metal - the headbanger genre - as I actually like those genres. I don't have an objection to any hard rock band being considered for the R&RHoF. What I do find funny are a lot of headbangers who think that hard rock bands or heavy metal bands (however one wants to class them) are the only rockers who should be in the hall. To hear some headbangers, 1950s rock isn't rock. Neither are artists from the 1960s or 1970s and almost all artists from those eras should be disinducted as such. I remember posting a comment to one headbanger's rant saying if he wants only heavy metal or hard rock acts in the hall, he should start his own hall as he didn't make the rules for the R&RHoF. Much as I disagree with the hall over some of their choices and diss the hell out of them over who they haven't inducted or refuse to induct, they were the ones who put up the money and made the rules over who does and doesn't make the cut. Their choice and their right, however much I disagree with it. But, I do prefer the music of the 60s and 70s, not because it's mellow but because it was the music of my youth. I can't believe so much time has passed since those days and that a lot of artists whose music I listened to are no longer with us. A lot of the music has a timlessness to it, which was something else I noticed about music from the 80s and 90s and later. Music from the 80s and later didn't have the same timeless feel to it, but it's still listenable, which is all that matters to me.
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Post by Dianna on Oct 17, 2014 12:19:21 GMT -5
regarding popular music eras - I think the 80's and 90's were important too. that was time and everything changed. disco died lol and rock and even dance music was sort of revived it was fresh .. but that happens every decade.. How you might have felt in the 60's and 70's I'm sure the old time doo wop people from the 50's were making faces about folk music and hard rock..I don't like most of the rap music of today or death metal goth stuff.My niece loves this band avenged sevenfold and blars it constantly.. I do like some of the bands that spawned from the punk era my nephews used to listen to.. from Long Beach, Ca..Sublime., which they no longer exist as a band. (santeria) I love that song..I love Anaheim's No Doubt (late 90's) I think those people made some really great music. Here is Gwen Stefani and No Doubt. Sunday Morning..
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Post by erik on Oct 17, 2014 16:56:02 GMT -5
The problem is that I really don't know of any major artists on the radio, the current "hot stars", who are still going to be around in five to ten years, which will make it a lot harder for the RRHOF to justify inducting anyone whose career started in the mid-1990s onward. All of the good ones I still feel are worthy for induction are either of the generation preceding mine, that can't get arrested on the radio, or who only ever had cult followings (for example, Lone Justice, the mid-80s alt-country/cowpunk band led by Maria McKee, who I think is one of the most underrated female vocalists of the last 40 years).
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Post by sliderocker on Oct 17, 2014 17:17:44 GMT -5
regarding popular music eras - I think the 80's and 90's were important too. that was time and everything changed. disco died lol and rock and even dance music was sort of revived it was fresh .. but that happens every decade.. How you might have felt in the 60's and 70's I'm sure the old time doo wop people from the 50's were making faces about folk music and hard rock..I don't like most of the rap music of today or death metal goth stuff.My niece loves this band avenged sevenfold and blars it constantly.. I do like some of the bands that spawned from the punk era my nephews used to listen to.. from Long Beach, Ca..Sublime., which they no longer exist as a band. (santeria) I love that song..I love Anaheim's No Doubt (late 90's) I think those people made some really great music. That was a very good song by Gwen Stefani and No Doubt...thanks for sharing it. They kinda looked like they were out of the 1950s with their clothing and hairstyle, just like the B-52s looked more like they were out of the early 1960s. But, both were very cool groups. I know grunge was very big in the 90s and I liked some of the grunge acts, but some of the grunge acts tended to sound alike, which had me wondering why all the copying of a sound someone else was successful with and the lack of originality? I liked Hootie and the Blowfish but heard more than a few acts whose lead singer was trying his best to sound like Darius Rucker in an attempt to claim some of the same success Hootie and the Blowfish were having I think you are definitely right on about the old time doo wop people making faces about folk music and hard rock from later eras. I know for a fact that there are people from the 60s who made faces and looked down on artists from the 1970s. In a sense, I think that's something that happens with anyone who either grew up in a certain decade or was around to have heard the music. They like the decade in which they're most familiar but don't like the ones that came before or the ones that came afterwards. I like music from all decades, and that includes the decade in which I was born and the decades before I was born.
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Post by Dianna on Oct 18, 2014 15:45:09 GMT -5
regarding popular music eras - I think the 80's and 90's were important too. that was time and everything changed. disco died lol and rock and even dance music was sort of revived it was fresh .. but that happens every decade.. How you might have felt in the 60's and 70's I'm sure the old time doo wop people from the 50's were making faces about folk music and hard rock..I don't like most of the rap music of today or death metal goth stuff.My niece loves this band avenged sevenfold and blars it constantly.. I do like some of the bands that spawned from the punk era my nephews used to listen to.. from Long Beach, Ca..Sublime., which they no longer exist as a band. (santeria) I love that song..I love Anaheim's No Doubt (late 90's) I think those people made some really great music. That was a very good song by Gwen Stefani and No Doubt...thanks for sharing it. They kinda looked like they were out of the 1950s with their clothing and hairstyle, just like the B-52s looked more like they were out of the early 1960s. But, both were very cool groups. I know grunge was very big in the 90s and I liked some of the grunge acts, but some of the grunge acts tended to sound alike, which had me wondering why all the copying of a sound someone else was successful with and the lack of originality? I liked Hootie and the Blowfish but heard more than a few acts whose lead singer was trying his best to sound like Darius Rucker in an attempt to claim some of the same success Hootie and the Blowfish were having I think you are definitely right on about the old time doo wop people making faces about folk music and hard rock from later eras. I know for a fact that there are people from the 60s who made faces and looked down on artists from the 1970s. In a sense, I think that's something that happens with anyone who either grew up in a certain decade or was around to have heard the music. They like the decade in which they're most familiar but don't like the ones that came before or the ones that came afterwards. I like music from all decades, and that includes the decade in which I was born and the decades before I was born. You're welcome Slide. I think they're a good band, an incidentally will be eligible for the Hall in 2017.. The song Sunday Morning.. the story goes.. Gwen and No Doubt bass player Tony Kanal (the guy with the aqua shirt) were in a relationship . he broke up with her, and she took the lyrics of the song from an argument they had. He was locked in the bathroom and her on the other side of the door. lol.. Attachments:
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