Speculation on 2015 RnR Hall's Nominees

[rick]

From the Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper --

A Look at the Potential Nominees


And then they continue for more speculation --

Could Janet Jackson join her brother as an inductee?

Will Joan Jett make the cut?

Does Bon Jovi have a prayer of being inducted?

Does Garth Brooks have a shot?

[Deleted]

In view of the continued overlooking of women in music history, I would like to see Joan Jett get her due... Lukewarm at best about the others..

[erik]

Quote by robertaxel:

In view of the continued overlooking of women in music history, I would like to see Joan Jett get her due... Lukewarm at best about the others..

Insofar as Joan Jett is concerned, even given the status she enjoys, it is largely on the basis of one song that the radio plays ad nauseum. If it's going to involve women, as it should, it ought to be Stevie Nicks (for her solo work) and Pat Benatar (IMHO).

And by the way, forget Bon Jovi (I f***ing hate 80s arena rock/hair metal), Janet Jackson (having that last name is woefully insufficient), and...Garth Brooks (Garth Brooks?!?! WTF?!)

[Deleted]

I agree with Erik wholeheartedly on Bon Jovi, Janet Jackson and Garth Brooks. However, I am not really sold on Pat Benatar; I find her kind of shrill and shallow; Stevie for sure (although she is already recognized for her work with FM).

[Richard W]

Oct 8, 2014 10:50:09 GMT -5 @robertaxel said:

I agree with Erik wholeheartedly on Bon Jovi, Janet Jackson and Garth Brooks. However, I am not really sold on Pat Benatar; I find her kind of shrill and shallow; Stevie for sure (although she is already recognized for her work with FM).

And I agree with you, Robert (and Erik).

I've never got the Benatar thang. She's never convinced me.

Darth Brooks? Are you kidding me? (Of course, it's all speculation at this point, but still...)

[sliderocker]

The potential list of 2015 nominees...scraping the bottom of a barrel that doesn't need to be scarped as there are still quite a few more deserving rock artists than the ones listed. Which, by the way, Janet Jackson is rock? Since when? I have nothing against Janet as a singer except she's not rock. And Garth Brooks? I saw that and thought, "Are they f**king kidding me?" If they were to nominate him, any credibility they have remaining (which isn't much) would be gone. If they have to nominate some country artist type, why not Glen Campbell? Who actually had quite a run on the pop charts and as a guitarist, played on hundreds of hit rock records in the 60s and was one of the first champions of Jimmy Webb. He continues to be overlooked, criminally so.

As for Joan Jett, much as I like her, she reminds me a bit of Patty Smith. One big hit makes you an influential artist is an argument I've never bought into. Bon Jovi? Another east coast rocker? No thanks. And again, I think whenever the R*RHofF nominates any artist, they should be required to list their reasons on why the artist is deserving of the honor, including (especially) a list of other artists the nominated artists have influenced.

[Dianna]

I don't know Pat Benatar made a big impact on rock music.. to me, as a young teen she was very important..At the time Debbie Harry was doing her punk disco thing, I did like One way or another. we also had Linda who at that time was in the midst of change, from the queen of country rock to a punker (actually to me richwar, I was not convinced with the whole punk/ new wave linda vibe) She could sing the music tho. Anyway. I think Pat Benatar was the first bad ass female rocker with tons of attitude.. when I first bought Pat's "In the Heat of the Night." I thought, boy she looks like she could kick any guys ass. lol show or not she convinced me and she was a huge inspiration to me and many young girls at the time.

[Richard W]

Thanks for the interesting perspective, Dianna, on Benatar. While I'm still not a fan (although I did like Love is a Battlefield; remember that video?), there's a difference in not being a fan and using that as an excuse for resisting nomination/induction; Benatar is welcome in the RRHoF.

And, BTW, I have no doubt Benatar could kick my arse then—and now!

[rick]

I saw online that the Cleveland Plain-Dealer was speculating on who is eligible, who might make the cut, etc. The first article I saw was the one on Janet Jackson. It kinda stunned me. While I admit that back in the day I played "Rhythm Nation" over and over again, it's long faded from my playlist. It was interesting to me that the author of that article mentioned that Laura Nyro, Linda Ronstadt and Donna Summer had to wait quite a while after they became eligible to be inducted. All three of those women are deserving, IMHO. The article makes the case that Jackson has not had a hit in a number of years. And some of her songs started to sound so much like others: "Runaway" is an update of "Escapade" IMHO. I agree with Slide in that I wouldn't call her rock, but there are others in the RRHoF who are borderline in that way.
As for Garth Brooks, I saw it and scratched my head, too, especially when the article mentioned others who have been passed over. It made me realize that it is probably because he is promoting a new album and new tour and, therefore, is likely to show up. (Maybe the RRHoF is honoring him for "The Life of Chris Gaines" album heh ) And then I thought, due to some savvy price-cutting deals with Walmart (his box sets of six CDs selling at Walmart for something like $12 in order to run up the sales tally), he is among the best-selling music artists of all time. That brings us to the old rub about art versus commerce. Does an institution give an award based on the fact that someone has had massive sales of albums sold? Or does it honor someone more obscure, like a Laura Nyro, whose songs people might be familiar with, but a lot of people don't know what she looked like or mis-pronounce her name "Nie-ro."
I saw that The Marvelettes are being considered and, of all the names listed, that's the one that tugged at my sentimental heart. Not only for "Mister Postman," but also for a great song later on in their career, "The Hunter Gets Captured by the Game," which Bette Midler is including as a bonus track on the Deluxe Edition of her forthcoming "It's the Girls" album.
As for Pat Benatar, I was never really a fan. Radio stations killed "Hit Me With Your Best Shot" by over-playing it. And it seems to wind up on every sports program at one time or another. I understand "Love Is a Battlefield" was a little more interesting, but, meh. When I saw Cher at Staples Center, Cyndi Lauper was her opening act. Cyndi is a talented songwriter and can still sing well. Now that Cher is doing a second leg of her tour, Pat Benatar is Cher's opening act. I am grateful to have seen it with Cyndi and not have had to sit through Benatar. Probably in some circle, Benatar has more rock cred, but I'd rather hear Cyndi sing any day over Pat. And, no, Cyndi Lauper is not yet in the Rock Hall.
When I saw the article on the RRHoF, the one thing that occurred to me was that Linda is finally in. Whatever we think of the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame, at least Linda was recognized. If there is going to be such a thing, it is only fitting that Linda was inducted. I just re-watched Linda's induction ceremony portion of the telecast with Glenn Frey, Carrie Underwood, Emmylou Harris, Bonnie Raitt, Sheryl Crow and Stevie Nicks. Even though Linda wasn't there, I get teary-eyed watching it.

[Dianna]

Oct 8, 2014 13:37:07 GMT -5 Richard W said:

Thanks for the interesting perspective, Dianna, on Benatar. While I'm still not a fan (although I did like Love is a Battlefield; remember that video?), there's a difference in not being a fan and using that as an excuse for resisting nomination/induction; Benatar is welcome in the RRHoF.

And, BTW, I have no doubt Benatar could kick my arse then—and now!

Ha ha! True..Even tho I am not a fan of an artist and if they are talented and deserving I will back the artist up. I never cared for Whitney the singer but it would be stupid of me to say she could not sing. Because I prefer this one or that one should not diminish another's talent. One thing about Pat Benatar.. she was never a victim and that sent a huge positive message out to strong young women.

[erik]

I'm going out on a long and slender limb here, and suggest a group that probably has only a slim chance of ever getting recognized--but they were rather important to the kind of music emanating from here in Los Angeles at the end of the 1960s:

POCO

Formed out of the ashes of Buffalo Springfield in 1968 by Richie Furay and Jim Messina, and featuring steel guitar and multi-instrumental virtuoso Rusty Young, Poco helped set the table for country-rock here in Southern California in the late 1960s/early 1970s. Though they weren't anywhere near as successful as the Eagles (who more or less stole former Poco memebers Randy Meisner and Timothy Schmit from them), and only got any real success long after the original line-up had left ("Crazy Love"; "Heart Of The Night" [all from 1979]), the band, now fronted by Young and guitarist Paul Cotton (who replaced Messina in 1971), are still hanging around out there. Other classic songs of theirs include "You Better Think Twice"; "Crazy Eyes"; "Indian Summer"; "Widowmaker"; "Barbados"; "Rose Of Cimarron"; and "Bad Weather".

[rick]

Another group that's been overlooked is The Moody Blues.

[erik]

Quote by Rick:

Another group that's been overlooked is The Moody Blues.

Yes indeed. Why they weren't inducted years ago is beyond me, as they did much to introduce classical influences into rock during the experimental period of the late 60s and early 70s. I guess you just have to chalk it up to many of the same forces that kept the door shuttered on Linda until last year.

[Richard W]

Moody Blues, absolutely (before Brooks and Jackson—except for her rhythm section, a dim bulb in my book, and certainly no singer of note—for sure).

Also, I'll go out on an even slenderer branch—a twig?—and suggest The Monkees. Although I'll admit that I'm still unclear who did, and didn't, do what, except for Jones's vocals and Nesmith's writing (Tork and Dolenz? not sure). Still, count the hits (not the only criterion for sure, but still.)

And is The Guess Who in?

[erik]

Quote by Richard W:

Also, I'll go out on an even slenderer branch—a twig?—and suggest The Monkees. Although I'll admit that I'm still unclear who did, and didn't, do what, except for Jones's vocals and Nesmith's writing (Tork and Dolenz? not sure). Still, count the hits (not the only criterion for sure, but still.)

I can go along with that, just merely out of spite for Jann Wenner (once again), who has always had a burr up his wazoo about "The Pre-Fab Four." I believe Tork was the bass player (more or less), and Mickey Dolenz was the drummer and occasional keyboardist. Nesmith was really the one to introduce the C&W element to the band ("What Am I Doin' Hangin' Round?", which was actually written, I believe, by a very young Michael Murphey [later of "Wildfire" fame], featured one Douglas Flint Dillard on electric banjo, at Nez's suggestion). Sure they were a "TV group", but I think their material holds up, both today and against some of the more pretentious excesses of psychedelia from the late 60s.

And is The Guess Who in?

I don't believe they are, and one could make any argument, pro or con, as to how justified their induction would be. The main pivot point for them is that, with "These Eyes" hitting #6 here in the US in the late spring of 1969, they were the first Canadian rock band to score a Top Ten hit south of Toronto.

[cescpa]

to echo Eric's sentiments - POCO would be in my Rock N Roll Hall of Fame ... their vocal harmonies and their incorporation of the elements of country-rock/Southern California rock have made them one of my all-time favorite bands ... particularly Rusty Young's pedal steel playing and Young's and Timothy B Schmit's vocal work ... that band has made some of the most beautiful songs I have ever heard (at least to these untrained, untalented, unmusical ears) ... two of my favorite POCO songs, and prime examples of the kind of music I like to hear ...

KEEP ON TRYIN' (with Schmidt out front - circa 1975)



ROSE OF CIMARRON (circa 1976 - written by Rusty Young)

[Dianna]

was never crazy about cyndi lauper either. I found her voice to be very irritating and spastic. can't deny her talent tho Is she not in the RRHOF?

[erik]

I'd also advocate these:

THE FLYING BURRITO BROTHERS: Maybe this band of zanies, led by Gram Parsons and Chris Hillman, were much too C&W in their time; but their 1969 album The Gilded Palace Of Sin remains an epochal signpost of what was going on here in SoCal in that time. But it should be the entire band, and not just Parsons all by his lonesome.

DEEP PURPLE: One of the best early exponents, along with Led Zeppelin, of British heavy metal. But if all you know them for is the guitar riff of "Smoke On The Water", then it behooves you to listen to some of their other stuff too, including 1969's Concerto For Rock Group And Orchestra, recorded with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and conductor/composer Sir Malcolm Arnold.

CHICAGO: Adding brass to a rock band may not necessarily have been revolutionary (and Blood, Sweat, and Tears, another act I would advocate for induction, beat these guys to it by two years), but they have a list of big-selling albums and hits, including "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?", "Saturday In The Park", "Old Days", and many others.

EMMYLOU HARRIS: If you're going to put a "country" artist in the Rock and Roll Hall of fame, I think it ought to be Emmy, and not "Garth Vader."

[Deleted]

Don't mind any of Erik's additions, but as far as a prior post, I was born without the Guess Who appreciation gene. Burton Cummings' voice is like chalk on a blackboard to me, sorry fans..

[moon]

That's totally messed up that the Moody Blues are not in the RRHOF. How can that be!!

[moon]

what about Chrissie Hyde and the pretenders.  she was more influential than Joan. for that matter what about the Heart.  they had more to offer than joan jett

[Deleted]

Oct 8, 2014 19:51:10 GMT -5 moon said:

what about Chrissie Hyde and the pretenders.  she was more influential than Joan. for that matter what about the Heart.  they had more to offer than joan jett

Yes, indeed; however they were inducted in 2005..


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pretenders

[70smusicfan]

Oct 8, 2014 15:22:29 GMT -5 rick said:

Another group that's been overlooked is The Moody Blues.

You may not be a fan of Prog Rock (we used to call it Classic Rock, like Classical Music) - but YES was the biggest group in the genre IMHO to hard core fans, even more so than Genesis or ELP (of course, no one can touch Pink Floyd).

[erik]

Quote by moon:

That's totally messed up that the Moody Blues are not in the RRHOF. How can that be!!

Well, certain snooty rock music critics whose names I don't think I need to reveal seem to think that the Moodies are overwhelmingly pretentious musically, though quite frankly that's how I feel about Pink Floyd at times (given how often stuff from The Wall and Dark Side Of The Moon gets played on classic rock radio). But I would place "Nights In White Satin", "The Voice", and "Tuesday Afternoon" as great reasons for having them enshrined in Cleveland, the critics be damned.


Quote by robertaxel re. The Guess Who:

Don't mind any of Erik's additions, but as far as a prior post, I was born without the Guess Who appreciation gene. Burton Cummings' voice is like chalk on a blackboard to me, sorry fans..

I suppose the main attraction for that band, aside from Burton Cummings, would be their lead guitarist Randy Bachman (fuzz-tone riffs on "No Time" and "American Woman")

[moon]

Oct 8, 2014 19:57:41 GMT -5 @robertaxel said:

Oct 8, 2014 19:51:10 GMT -5 moon said:

what about Chrissie Hyde and the pretenders.  she was more influential than Joan. for that matter what about the Heart.  they had more to offer than joan jett

Yes, indeed; however they were inducted in 2005..


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pretenders

[moon]

thanks, good to know about CH and the pretenders!!!

[erik]

Quote by moon:

thanks, good to know about CH and the pretenders!!!

And Heart, which was inducted in 2013. But I would have to add that I think Linda's induction this year hinged on the specter of her having come down with Parkinson's, and the abject fear that the powers-that-be involved in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame had about having to deal with accusations of cruelty in delaying Donna Summer's induction until she was dead. As much as I'd like to think Linda's career stats had something to do with it, I'm under no illusions that they likely wouldn't have done this at all if not for the Parkinson's diagnosis, and the fear of another dead female artist scandal.

[rick]

Oct 8, 2014 22:43:23 GMT -5 erik said:

Quote by moon:

thanks, good to know about CH and the pretenders!!!

And Heart, which was inducted in 2013. But I would have to add that I think Linda's induction this year hinged on the specter of her having come down with Parkinson's, and the abject fear that the powers-that-be involved in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame had about having to deal with accusations of cruelty in delaying Donna Summer's induction until she was dead. As much as I'd like to think Linda's career stats had something to do with it, I'm under no illusions that they likely wouldn't have done this at all if not for the Parkinson's diagnosis, and the fear of another dead female artist scandal.

Erik, I agree that there is that spectre hanging over Linda's inclusion. And that thought comes to mind. However, when I do watch Linda's segment, I am still overcome with emotion and how much joy she has provided over so many years. It would be nice if these things were based solely on merit and not a lot of other considerations and bulls---, but that's the world we live in. I do believe Linda's career DID have something to do with it. In watching the segment, I can see on the faces of audience members (Bill Murray, Max Weinberg, etc.) the joy that Linda's music brought so many people. And if people want to remember her for "When Will I Be Loved" over another song later in her career, that's fine. My point is that when I watch it, I don't sit and dwell on the impetus for HOW she got in. I am just glad she is in.

[sliderocker]

Oct 8, 2014 18:02:28 GMT -5 erik said:

Quote by Richard W:

Also, I'll go out on an even slenderer branch—a twig?—and suggest The Monkees. Although I'll admit that I'm still unclear who did, and didn't, do what, except for Jones's vocals and Nesmith's writing (Tork and Dolenz? not sure). Still, count the hits (not the only criterion for sure, but still.)

I can go along with that, just merely out of spite for Jann Wenner (once again), who has always had a burr up his wazoo about "The Pre-Fab Four." I believe Tork was the bass player (more or less), and Mickey Dolenz was the drummer and occasional keyboardist. Nesmith was really the one to introduce the C&W element to the band ("What Am I Doin' Hangin' Round?", which was actually written, I believe, by a very young Michael Murphey [later of "Wildfire" fame], featured one Douglas Flint Dillard on electric banjo, at Nez's suggestion). Sure they were a "TV group", but I think their material holds up, both today and against some of the more pretentious excesses of psychedelia from the late 60s.

And is The Guess Who in?

I don't believe they are, and one could make any argument, pro or con, as to how justified their induction would be. The main pivot point for them is that, with "These Eyes" hitting #6 here in the US in the late spring of 1969, they were the first Canadian rock band to score a Top Ten hit south of Toronto.

With the Monkees, the burr up Jann Wenner's a** has always been about the fact they didn't come together as a group through natural means, appeared on tv, because their tv series helped sell their records (an oddity of an argument because tv had long been one of the drivers of rock and roll) and didn't play their own instruments. Both arguments have long been demolished as has every other argument Wenner and his crowd came up with. All of the Monkees were in the L.A. area at the same time as many of their rock contemporaries, hanging out with the other musicians and looking for that all important break. Before any of them auditioned for their tv series, their paths were starting to cross. Nesmith had crossed paths with Tork and Dolenz and Dolenz and Jones had crossed paths. It almost seemed like their tv series was an act of fate in bringing them together. As far as not playing on their initial recordings, that was partly true and partly false. They were allowed to play initially on their first recording sessions but hadn't had time to gel as a band and were busy with their tv series. That was when Don Kirshner (who is in the hall as a nonperformer - go figure) came onto the scene and limited the group to vocals only. The dirty little secret though about the Monkees not playing was not such a secret. It was already well known they didn't play because of time constraints, but their dirty little secret was also the dirty little secret of almost every other rock band out of southern L.A. at the time. The bands all used studio musicians on their recordings, either in total or to augment their playing. It was only when the Monkees demanded the right to be allowed to play on their recordings that not playing became a big deal. The backlash against them over not playing was undeserved and many of their contemporaries, seeing what happened to them stopped using session musicians less the Wenner mob turned on them too. One could argue the Monkees were a major influence on their contemporaries when it came to being the musicians on their records or letting the studio musicians record the music (which many did). And as far as lasting influence goes, many other acts have acknowledged them as an influence including the Clash, Tom Petty, the Bangles and many, many more. And when Rhino started a petition for the group to be considered for the hall, signer number one was none other than Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys.

With the Guess Who, I'd have to say they were the first Canadian group to have a considerable impact on the US pop charts. Most of the artists from Canada who had made it in the US had either been solo artists (usually in the country genre) or made an impact before the British Invasion. The Guess Who had quite a few hits and their success opened the doors for a lot more Canadian artists, although unlike the British Invasion, the Canadian Invasion was not quite as intense. Most of the Canadian artists who came after the Guess Who were fairly lighweight. Anne Murray was an exception, as were Gordon Lightfoot, Joni Mitchell and Neil Young, who were around prior to the Guess Who but with varying degrees of success. Neil is well documented on his success but Gordon and Joni were perhaps more well known for their songs which were hits for others, more than what their own recordings had been for them. As far as influence, I can't think of any who have named the Guess Who as an influence but the reason for that may have more to do with interviewers not asking about a Canadian influence. Many in our country are still fixed on the bands and artists that were part of the British Invasion rather than artists who came from other countries, including our neighbor Canada. That or maybe they're afraid an artist might name a Canadian artist not well liked by the critics.

[sliderocker]

Oct 8, 2014 21:08:35 GMT -5 erik said:

Quote by moon:

That's totally messed up that the Moody Blues are not in the RRHOF. How can that be!!

Well, certain snooty rock music critics whose names I don't think I need to reveal seem to think that the Moodies are overwhelmingly pretentious musically, though quite frankly that's how I feel about Pink Floyd at times (given how often stuff from The Wall and Dark Side Of The Moon gets played on classic rock radio). But I would place "Nights In White Satin", "The Voice", and "Tuesday Afternoon" as great reasons for having them enshrined in Cleveland, the critics be damned.

The Moodies always took their music seriously, treating their music as art which was what the critics wanted the artists to do with their music. But, I think the critics had issues with the group because they sometimes used real horns, strings and woodwinds, mixed rock with classical and wrote songs mostly on an individual basis rather than in a collaboration of two or more members. And all the members wrote songs and almost all their albums featured contributions from every member. Guitarist Justin Hayward and bassist John Lodge were the band's hitmakers but that didn't initially lead to a situation where the Moodies' albums were dominated by their songs. The critics probably would've preferred that Hayward and Lodge to only have written all of the songs, which sort of happened in the 80s and onward. Overall, their music has held up remarkably well and only very little of it sounds dated.