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Post by charlotte on Aug 30, 2013 18:01:28 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2013 18:36:02 GMT -5
A neat article.... a few points..
I do like Grace Potter too
I consider Get Closer one of her most underrated albums and not a disappointment at all.
Screw Jan Wenner, indeed
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Post by the Scribe on Aug 31, 2013 1:18:48 GMT -5
The Miley Cyrus ControversyRhinofy-Linda Ronstadt
MAD LOVE
The album seen as a sell-out back then and completely forgotten today is Ronstadt stripped raw and gone punk and if you don’t like it I don’t care. And if you don’t know it, you should.
“Justine”
Written by Mark Goldenberg and ultimately done better by his band the Cretones
not on Spotify, but you can listen here: The Cretones- Justine
that does not mean Ronstadt’s version is not top-notch and special in its own way. Goldenberg emotes from deep down in his soul, he’s got something to say and damn you’re gonna listen, whereas Ronstadt is manipulating you! She’s doing little tricks with her voice and making the lyrics come alive. Not long hereafter she morphed into a Broadway star, the oldsters’ favorite, but this is pure rock and roll, everything Grace Potter is trying to do but is unable to achieve. Yes, Ronstadt looked like a dish, but not only did she have a pure instrument, she knew how to use it!
“Look Out For My Love”
Yes, the Neil Young song from his comeback album “Comes A Time” that really didn’t achieve its goal, which was to recapture the magic of “Harvest.” You can never go back, you can only go forward. Which Mr. Young did right thereafter, with “Rust Never Sleeps,” ensuring he truly never faded away. Yup, one album, with a sound no one expects, can do that for you.
But unlike with “Justine” above, “Look Out For My Love” rocks harder than the writer’s version. I learned to love “Look Out For My Love” via Ronstadt, even though I heard Neil’s version first.
“Girls Talk”
Yes, the Elvis Costello song. One of two on “Mad Love.” And Linda’s rendition is far from sacrilegious. You hear the song, the performance does not dominate, like it did on so many early Costello records.
And there’s not a bum note on “Mad Love,” I love it. It’s probably the Ronstadt album I spin most.
GET CLOSER
A return to the classic sound after the punk/new wave “Mad Love,” “Get Closer” was seen as a disappointment and is, but there are two cuts so special that you’ll be thrilled if you don’t know them.
“Easy For You To Say”
A Jimmy Webb original long after his heyday as the songwriter of Top Forty hits, this track is so intimate and meaningful it almost creeps you out.
Well that’s easy for you to say
That I don’t know what I’m doing
When you’ve thrown our love away
Left my life in ruin
That’s easy for you to say
Easy for you to say? Left my life in ruin? These are the lyrics of a great songwriter. It’s not about complicated, but right. Because when they leave your life is in ruin in a way you never could have contemplated previously. And it’s easy for the cavalier to say so much, as we sit on the sidelines so devastated we’re unable to lick our wounds.
“Mr. Radio”
Listen to the original, by Roderick Taylor Falconer, which I’ve never ever heard before but discovered on Spotify, it’s a completely different record! Good in its own right, but the feel is serious, whereas Ronstadt’s take is haunting.
Ronstadt’s version is a movie! You can see them taking the radio off the truck, the only entertainment in a world off the grid, long before the Internet, when the only people you came in contact with lived in your village.
HASTEN DOWN THE WIND
The Karla Bonoff album. And if you don’t have Karla’s Columbia debut with these three songs and so much more your life is not complete, certainly if you’re a sensitive girl or boy with more questions than answers.
And at some point when I’m in the right, reflective mood I’m gonna write about that album, but it’s so special I want to do it justice, which means I may never get the opportunity.
So, I’m not gonna write about “Lose Again,” “If He’s Ever Near” and “Someone To Lay Down Beside Me.”
“The Tattler”
Once upon a time Ry Cooder had a sense of humor, was not crippled by the expectations of his audience and released album after album of stuff so far from the radar screen that if you bought it and enjoyed it you couldn’t stop talking about it. Start with “Into The Purple Valley” and buy the self-titled, slickly produced first, just to hear “One Meat Ball.” Then after misfiring with “Boomer’s Story,” Cooder came back with what is probably his best album, “Paradise and Lunch.” After you spin it a few times, you’ll find yourself singing “Married Man’s A Fool” while walking to the bathroom and “Jesus on the Mainline,” with its refrain to “call him up,” at odd moments throughout the day, and even though “Tamp ‘Em Up Solid” is so solid and “Mexican Divorce” is exquisite, the absolute killer on “Paradise and Lunch” is “Tattler.”
Now the song has three writers. Cooder and his producer Russ Titelman and Washington Phillips, whose original is the blueprint.
But very few people knew either of these versions, Phillips’s or Cooder’s. And then Ronstadt blew the song into the stratosphere. That was her power, taking the unknown and revealing it to the masses, she was that big a star, one of the absolute biggest.
And Linda’s take is smoother but just as intimate as the other two.
“Give One Heart”
A white reggae track written by John and Johanna Hall for the band Orleans, it appeared on their giant smash album “Still The One.” And that rendition is good, but Linda’s is spectacular! Orleans’s is a bit overwrought, Linda’s take is a bit lighter, with a bigger emphasis on the reggae beat and a magical chorus. It’s the sleeper on “Hasten Down The Wind,” you start to love it the sixth or tenth time through and then it’s the one you wait for.
PRISONER IN DISGUISE
The second Geffen album, the one after the Capitol smash “Heart Like A Wheel,” “Prisoner In Disguise” was a sales and artistic disappointment, it was just a bit too intimate when the audience was expecting something more upfront. You listen to “Prisoner In Disguise,” whereas you feel part of “Heart Like A Wheel.” You could play the latter at a party, you wouldn’t do that with “Prisoner In Disguise,” it was more for you alone, at home, in your bedroom.
“Prisoner In Disguise”
Yes, the title track, it’s truly the best on the album, because of the harmony vocal of its writer, J.D. Souther. It brings tears to your eyes. The side would end, the tonearm would return to its resting place and you’d be sitting there in the darkness, contemplating your life. You just wished you had someone there to sing harmony with you.
And the song choices are amazing. Everything from the certified hit “Heat Wave” to “Hey Mister, That’s Me Up On The Jukebox” to “Many Rivers To Cross,” but although all are good, none are up to the standard set by the original. Although Ronstadt does make “Tracks Of My Tears” her own. It’s my favorite of the famous covers.
As for the less famous… Lowell George might not have had the power or range of Ronstadt, but he was every bit the singer, and it’s great that Linda cut “Roll Um Easy,” but the original is far superior.
Then again, “You Tell Me That I’m Falling Down” only suffers from being inferior to the previous record’s McGarrigle sisters’ “Heart Like A Wheel.”
“Love Is A Rose” preceded Neil Young’s recording of his own song, unfortunately it’s minor Young, and is a disappointment as an opener.
SIMPLE DREAMS
“Hasten Down The Wind” put Ronstadt back on top, and “Simple Dreams” maintained the momentum, it was every bit as big as its predecessor, it had even greater cultural impact.
If “Hasten Down The Wind” is her Bonoff album, “Simple Dreams” is her Warren Zevon record. And even though Zevon evidenced a personality absent from Ronstadt’s take of “Poor Poor Pitiful Me,” and a sense of humor, Ronstadt’s is a far superior record, with the syndrums and Ronstadt’s powerful vocal making an insider track positively powerful and mainstream.
And the track everybody remembers from “Simple Dreams” is “Blue Bayou,” which honestly never penetrated me. I just don’t love the song that much. And it seemed too much a showcase for her vocal abilities.
Once again, it’s the J.D. Souther title track that’s most memorable to me, it’s the opposite of “Blue Bayou,” totally heartfelt and meaningful, with a stunning instrumental coda. It’s a keeper.
LIVING IN THE USA
I didn’t buy this when it came out, I was burned out, I was pleasantly surprised by the follow-up, “Mad Love,” this just seemed a repetition of the formula, with an inferior to Bonnie Raitt cover of “Blowing Away,” a superfluous cover of Elvis Costello’s “Alison” and a too obvious rendition of “Just One Look.”
Still… Little Feat’s original “All That You Dream” is superior, but Ronstadt’s version has its own merit.
Meanwhile, nobody writes stuff like this anymore, never mind being able to sing it… Lowell George wasn’t afraid to write from underneath as opposed to on top. And that’s when we’re truly interested, when you lose. But it was Paul Barrere and Billy Payne who wrote “All That You Dream,” yet you’d never know it by listening to Lowell George sing it. Listen to it and know why even though he never really broke through himself, he was revered by all the L.A. insiders.
I’ve been down, but not like this before!
And Linda does sing backup vocals on the Little Feat original, but even better on “Living In The USA” is her cover of Warren Zevon’s “Mohammed’s Radio,” unfortunately Zevon’s original is a killer.
But my favorite song on “Living In The USA” is J.D. Souther’s “White Rhythm & Blues.” That’s what we’re all truly looking for, someone who cares when you lose.
DON’T CRY NOW
Wherein David Geffen liberates Linda and gives her creative control and she misfires. This was right before Peter Asher and Andrew Gold moved in and perfected the formula. “Sail Away” is truly laughable, like singing the phone book, it’s got none of the humor of the Randy Newman original, it was excoriated at the time, but very few people ever heard it. But Ronstadt does cover “Desperado” before it became a national anthem. And there’s a good cover of Rick Roberts’s “Colorado” and a good rendition of Neil Young’s “I Believe In You,” but “Don’t Cry Now” is for fans only, and even they can live without it.
AND now I’m running out of gas.
Yes, you’ve got to have “Different Drum” and “Long Long Time” from the initial Capitol albums, and there’s a cover of Paul Siebel’s “Louise” on “Silk Purse,” but I never listened to those albums back then, didn’t even own them, and few other people did either.
And the Nelson Riddle stuff was not my cup of tea and the Trio albums lacked superior material and…there’s so much material that I can’t cover it all.
And I already Rhinofied “Heart Like A Wheel.”
But, I do want to point out there’s a good cover of Karla Bonoff’s “Goodbye My Friend” on “Cry Like a Rainstorm, Howl Like The Wind,” but the Linda Ronstadt track I play most, which I’ve also written about before, comes from her 1995 return to her classic sound, “Feels Like Home.”
“The Waiting”
Oh baby don’t it feel like heaven right now
Don’t it feel like something from a dream
That’s what it’s like, coming home from the record store with the vinyl record of your favorite artist under your arm. You break the shrinkwrap, pull out the inner sleeve, drop the record on the platter, lift the needle and…
Well yeah I might have chased a couple women around
That was what was special about Linda Ronstadt. She was both a girl’s girl and a guy’s girl. In an era where people were still questioning whether to have premarital sex, she not only flaunted her sexuality, but went through an endless series of desirable boyfriends, truly living the rock star life when that was more about attitude and everyday living than cash. If you were a star, you had a golden ticket to the smorgasbord of the entire world, and Linda Ronstadt partook.
The waiting is the hardest part
Every day you see one more card
Ain’t that the truth. You think you know the future, but you don’t. You’re just humming along and then you fall into an unforeseen ditch, you get cancer, you get Parkinson’s. But the amazing thing about the ride is despite all the negatives, there’s always a silver lining.
Oh don’t let it kill you baby, don’t let it get to you
Don’t let it kill you baby, don’t let it get to you
I’ll be your bleedin’ heart, I’ll be your cryin’ fool
Don’t let this go too far
That’s right, don’t let this go too far. It’s sad that Linda Ronstadt can’t sing anymore, but she’s not dead. Don’t put her six feet under yet, like that old Broadway chestnut says, she’s got a lot of livin’ to do.
But the truth is a small fraction of the world ever saw her sing live. But the records, they are not buried treasures, but living artifacts that are not only in our memories but are spun on a regular basis.
And the truth is what was evidenced in every Linda Ronstadt track was life. The pure joy of being alive. Of course there was introspection, downers, but isn’t that how it really is?
That’s art. The full panoply of life.
And it’s embodied in Linda Ronstadt’s canon.
And now she’s gonna get a victory lap in which everybody who decried her is going to try and glom on and glorify her. She’ll be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, there are already tons of tributes.
But it’s never about awards. It’s about every day, it’s about life.
So I say Linda, give Jann Wenner and his cronies the middle finger! Keep spouting your left wing positions! Keep evidencing that three-dimensional personality that got the conservative in both political position and emotional condition so tied up in knots.
You are truly a rock star.
SCREW ‘EM!
We always loved you and still do. You were our Jane Russell, our Ava Gardner, you were every boy’s heart’s desire and a role model for all females. But unlike those two dimensional movie stars, you had a full-bodied personality, you were everything we wanted to be.
And still are.
Rhinofy-Linda Ronstadt
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Post by BRENDYWENDY on Aug 31, 2013 2:58:00 GMT -5
I don't know how u can talk about the GET CLOSER lp without mentioning her incredible rendition of THE MOON'S A HARSH MISTRESS, maybe my favorite Ronstadt song of them all. Although it has a lot of competition, & it depends on my mood, ha!  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 8:58:46 GMT -5
I don't know how u can talk about the GET CLOSER lp without mentioning her incredible rendition of THE MOON'S A HARSH MISTRESS, maybe my favorite Ronstadt song of them all. Although it has a lot of competition, & it depends on my mood, ha! Bren; I was very fortunate to hear this live during Linda's great Feels Like Home tour in 1995 and what a highlight it was... several audience members gasped in surprise and delight upon hearing 'See her as she flies......' |
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Post by djay on Aug 31, 2013 10:26:05 GMT -5
I understand the concern about going to far in eulogizing her career, indeed, she is not dead...far from it, she's an entertaining, bright speaker and walking history of American music. However, there is also something rather sweet in seeing these new appreciations (particularly the one in the New Yorker).
How many of us get hear eulogies while we're still around to actually hear them? It's a good thing, especially considering the occasionally weird relationship she's had with a few critics the past few years. Because many pop press critics are self-conscious by nature--still the geeky kids trying to seem hip in the lunchroom--they're often afraid to challenge the narrative that a few of the cool kids had settled on: she's uncool; a corporate-rock princess, that she didn't "get it." I recall one high-gloss reviewer who wondered if she grasps the irony of a Warren Zevon lyric. Barely able to contain his own pride in figuring out that Warren Zevon was not a conflict in Central Africa, he was certain Linda just wasn't edgy enough, couldn't be. Then there's the popular canard that she's just a cover artist. Though she's not a songwriter, this for me is the most absurd tag-line of all. Even a passing familiarity with her catalogue shows such a clear AOR focus that her top-forty material seems almost obligatory. Not that it didn't sound great, but as with Joni Mitchell who could easily craft a tune like "Help Me," that was clearly not the sound that either woman was interested in refining. And yet, even her most popular recordings went well-beyond the standard expectations of a good cover. They were brilliantly reworked into the sound that she pioneered.
Skip deconstructing her complete overhaul of the genre..."You're No Good" is no more a Betty Everett song than "Respect" is an Otis Redding song. Think of any live version you've ever heard of "When Will I Be Loved" or "Silver Threads" over the past 40 years: the original arrangements have been all but forgotten...Yes, I've heard that Ryan Seacrest once introduced Carrie Underwood performing the "Everly Brother's When Will I Be Loved," but I've got $100 that says neither of them would even recognize Don and Phil's guitar intro as the song they surely know by heart. That's not merely covering a song, it's reinventing it.
Closing chapters are an opportunity for retrospection that usually come too late for an artists to appreciate. Imagine Diane Arbus, Robert Mapplethorpe or Mark Rothko knowing the massive outpouring of love and appreciation the art world expressed once they were no longer part of it. I think of Karen Carpenter who lived to see her image and style fall so far out of favor and missed what seemed to a revelation as the whole world stopped to listen, and heard again one of the greatest voices of her generation. Many years ago, when a wrote a music column for a tiny publication, another writer mentioned the release of Canciones de mi Padre. "Is that girl suffering from an identity crises or what?" he asked. It had all the flat awkwardness of a line you might come up with in shower and wait impatiently to use, sure everyone will be dazzled by "quick" wit. He looked around to see who laughed (anyone smile at jocks table?). I don't know if anyone did, don't care one way or the other. The point was it hadn't listened, didn't know what it was, just that wasn't cool. So, I say yes to eulogizing--at least the singing part of L.R.'s career. I love the fact tha "Simple Dreams" and "HLAW" are being talked about again, so glowingly. And let's take another look at Western Wall, Adieu False Heart and We Rain and maybe Fresni and some of her most extraordinary work that got missed in the blinding glare of mainstream marketing. Maybe this news, this press, while not being anything anyone would have ever wanted may have a silver(blue) lining after all.
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1peterd
A Number and a Name
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Post by 1peterd on Aug 31, 2013 13:20:17 GMT -5
I understand the concern about going to far in eulogizing her career, indeed, she is not dead... When I saw this part of your comment I felt what I have been reading in many of the forms did sound like a eulogies. I don’t like going in that direction. Thus far Linda has had an incredible career and it’s always fun to reminisce. But I’m looking at future, her new book and what other thing she may offer. Like the man said; “when life gives you lemons, make lemon aid.” I’m thinking that Linda’s sees her glass as ½ full. I’d be surprised not to see her making that metaphorical lemon aid in the future. As for Jann Wenner/hall of fame. In the words of the Tanya Tucker song. “It's a little too late to do the right thing now” |
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Post by Porkpie on Aug 31, 2013 14:22:19 GMT -5
I'm in the UK (a Brit) have no idea who Jann Wedder is but guessing he's something to do with the museum. Firstly, who the hell is he and who care when he's dead and gone? Secondly, a "museum" is for relics once they're done, Linda is alive and kicking, still raising two kids and has created a legacy through the decades that will play even when everyone reading this is long gone. So let's all just chill people, play Linda proudly, educate the uneducated and look forward to supporting her in anyway we can in her future endevours. For all those lucky enough to meet her over the coming weeks/months, pass on everyone's appreciation and love and keep it uplifting and light - she will live a rich and rewarding life, this is just a new, unplanned chapter.
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Post by erik on Aug 31, 2013 16:29:17 GMT -5
Quote by Porkpie:
Jann Wenner, actually. He's not only the de facto Head Honcho of the RRHOF, he publishes Us Magazine, and is the founder of Rolling Stone (the magazine, not the group The Rolling Stones [LOL]). In other words, he's the kind of guy who likes to think he's a lot more important than he really is.
Quote by djay:
A lot of these critics are absurd, of course, but they make their money by sounding "hip" to a lot of people who don't know any better. And as Upton Sinclair once said: "It's difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on him not understanding it."
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Post by BRENDYWENDY on Aug 31, 2013 20:53:34 GMT -5
I don't know how u can talk about the GET CLOSER lp without mentioning her incredible rendition of THE MOON'S A HARSH MISTRESS, maybe my favorite Ronstadt song of them all. Although it has a lot of competition, & it depends on my mood, ha! Bren; I was very fortunate to hear this live during Linda's great Feels Like Home tour in 1995 and what a highlight it was... several audience members gasped in surprise and delight upon hearing 'See her as she flies......' I AM SOOO ENVIOUS.... |
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Post by jhar26 on Sept 1, 2013 10:11:43 GMT -5
I think some of you guys are really paying much too much attention to that HOF. On the one hand it's "screw 'em", but on the other hand every time I'm coming here it's a topic of discussion. I don't think it's that important. Jan Wenner doesn't like her? Ok, that's one guy. Who cares? The HOF is losing more of whatever credibility it had with each year that goes by anyway. Early on it was ok in that only great artists got in there. Some were missing, but no problem. They could always put them in there later on. But each year it's getting worse and worse and ten years from now some of the deserving nominees might not even WANT to be inducted anymore because HOF-er is no longer a quality label.
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Post by erik on Sept 1, 2013 12:29:40 GMT -5
Quote by jhar26:
Maybe we do, and maybe we feed into Wenner's publicity machine, but many of us are sure that Wenner is not the only guy denying her induction (Dave Marsh, the world's biggest Springsteen homer, is another--and maybe a few other snobs there who are too chickens*** to identify themselves).
That said, though, the way I look at it now, whether Linda gets in this year or not at all (as they had done with Donna Summer and Dusty Springfield, while they were still alive), she doesn't lose out either way. If they deny her induction, the attacks on their irrelevance will be compounded by accusations of extreme cruelty. And if they actually do decide to induct her, people will be asking, "Well what the hell took you so long?!" Linda doesn't have to say either way whether she wants it or not.
Should the latter take place and Linda does indeed get inducted, I think it'd be a good thing to maybe have her much younger second cousin Britt step in for the performance part, since Linda can no longer sing.
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Post by just me on Sept 1, 2013 12:49:59 GMT -5
Kennedy Center honors would make us happier and honor all her music.
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Post by sliderocker on Sept 1, 2013 13:52:47 GMT -5
I think some of you guys are really paying much too much attention to that HOF. On the one hand it's "screw 'em", but on the other hand every time I'm coming here it's a topic of discussion. I don't think it's that important. Jan Wenner doesn't like her? Ok, that's one guy. Who cares? The HOF is losing more of whatever credibility it had with each year that goes by anyway. Early on it was ok in that only great artists got in there. Some were missing, but no problem. They could always put them in there later on. But each year it's getting worse and worse and ten years from now some of the deserving nominees might not even WANT to be inducted anymore because HOF-er is no longer a quality label. I think one reason people are paying too much attention to the R&RHoF is that artists like Linda matter to a great number of fans. They want to see her (and others) nominated and inducted because they want to see her honored for her work. Wenner and company established certain criteria that an artist had to meet to be eligible: such as 25 years must have passed since their first record, must have made critical contributions to the genre, must have been influential on others, and so on. Linda meets every criteria level they have established, has been eligible since 1992 but in the twenty-one years since her eligibility, has never received the first nod. Meanwhile, you have lesser artists who have been inducted who make you go "Huh?" There are some artists whose contributions to the rock genre are questionable and/or whose influence was more that they were favorites of the critics more than they were with the genreal public. What's particularly galling is that many of the people with a connection to Linda: the Eagles, Neil Young, Jackson Browne, et al, are already in while Linda remains out. Linda should've been in long before the Eagles and Jackson were inducted. Without Linda, there might never have been an Eagles, at least not with the same line up. I'd like to see Linda nominated and inducted while she's alive, rather than see her nominated and inducted after she is gone from this world. The R&RHoF inducted Dusty Springfield after she had passed, nominated Donna Summer several times and again, inducted her after she had passed. In a sense, I feel like the powers that be at the R&RHoF take great delight in keeping certain acts out of the hall until maybe the artists have passed. I also feel the R&RHoF intentionally keeps artists out who are fan favorites, even though the fan favorite act meets the hall's criteria. Thus, the hall members who make the nominations and inductions are violating the rules they established that made artist eligible. They have no rule that says any artist who is a fan favorite is automatically excluded from consideration. The hall also has no rule that says an artist must write their own songs, though there are enough rock fanatics who seem to think that such a criteria exists and that's reason enough to exclude Linda. It doesn't occur to these idiotic fanatics that the hall has already inducted many artists and groups whose members didn't write their own songs. But, it's amazing the number of fanatics who think such a rule exists! True, it's not important in the long run. Jann Wenner and company can go screw themselves. Publicly, Linda and many other artists and bands that haven't been inducted say they are not bothered by the fact that they're not in, but how do they feel about such snubs privately? They may take such snubs more to heart than we can imagine. |
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Post by jhar26 on Sept 1, 2013 17:45:26 GMT -5
I think some of you guys are really paying much too much attention to that HOF. On the one hand it's "screw 'em", but on the other hand every time I'm coming here it's a topic of discussion. I don't think it's that important. Jan Wenner doesn't like her? Ok, that's one guy. Who cares? The HOF is losing more of whatever credibility it had with each year that goes by anyway. Early on it was ok in that only great artists got in there. Some were missing, but no problem. They could always put them in there later on. But each year it's getting worse and worse and ten years from now some of the deserving nominees might not even WANT to be inducted anymore because HOF-er is no longer a quality label. I think one reason people are paying too much attention to the R&RHoF is that artists like Linda matter to a great number of fans. They want to see her (and others) nominated and inducted because they want to see her honored for her work. Wenner and company established certain criteria that an artist had to meet to be eligible: such as 25 years must have passed since their first record, must have made critical contributions to the genre, must have been influential on others, and so on. Linda meets every criteria level they have established, has been eligible since 1992 but in the twenty-one years since her eligibility, has never received the first nod. Meanwhile, you have lesser artists who have been inducted who make you go "Huh?" There are some artists whose contributions to the rock genre are questionable and/or whose influence was more that they were favorites of the critics more than they were with the genreal public. What's particularly galling is that many of the people with a connection to Linda: the Eagles, Neil Young, Jackson Browne, et al, are already in while Linda remains out. Linda should've been in long before the Eagles and Jackson were inducted. Without Linda, there might never have been an Eagles, at least not with the same line up. I'd like to see Linda nominated and inducted while she's alive, rather than see her nominated and inducted after she is gone from this world. The R&RHoF inducted Dusty Springfield after she had passed, nominated Donna Summer several times and again, inducted her after she had passed. In a sense, I feel like the powers that be at the R&RHoF take great delight in keeping certain acts out of the hall until maybe the artists have passed. I also feel the R&RHoF intentionally keeps artists out who are fan favorites, even though the fan favorite act meets the hall's criteria. Thus, the hall members who make the nominations and inductions are violating the rules they established that made artist eligible. They have no rule that says any artist who is a fan favorite is automatically excluded from consideration. The hall also has no rule that says an artist must write their own songs, though there are enough rock fanatics who seem to think that such a criteria exists and that's reason enough to exclude Linda. It doesn't occur to these idiotic fanatics that the hall has already inducted many artists and groups whose members didn't write their own songs. But, it's amazing the number of fanatics who think such a rule exists! True, it's not important in the long run. Jann Wenner and company can go screw themselves. Publicly, Linda and many other artists and bands that haven't been inducted say they are not bothered by the fact that they're not in, but how do they feel about such snubs privately? They may take such snubs more to heart than we can imagine. Well, I don't object to some of those who were more critics favorites than public's favorites getting in because some of those were indeed very good in my opinion while some of the general public's favorites were/are almost embarrassing. I wouldn't want it to be just done by a public vote because that would mean that ten years from now we'd have a HOF full of Mariah Carey and Britney Spears types. So I'm in favor of some (for lack of a better word) quality control. If that sounds like snobism I'm sorry, but that's my honest opinion. But I don't want it to be up to just a few self-appointed critics either. Perhaps it should be a combination of the two where there's a critics vote and a public vote with each counting for 50%. Induct four acts each year this way plus one act chosen exclusively by the critics to give artists that are less high profile but also very important also a chance to get in. Only problem is, who gets to decide who the nominees are? If it's the public half of it will be crap. If it's the critics they can still boycot the likes of a Ronstadt. So I don't think that there really is a perfect formula. |
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Post by djay on Sept 1, 2013 22:35:56 GMT -5
Individuals decide what is or isn't important to them, so who knows how much focus is too much. I'm pretty certain, though that many posters-if that's the right word--do give the RRHOF more weight that it has anywhere else. I'm a reasonably informed guy who notices who got a Nat. Book Award, Nobel, Mark Twain, Kennedy Cntr., Pulitzer...and I can usually tell you who one this year's Pritzker Prize (Wang Shu for 2012). And yes, I'll check out the VMA's and the other 65 music awards if I remember, but I honestly have no idea who's in the RRHOF and hadn't heard the name Jann Werner in a decade or two. I know, like mood rings, he used to be quite the thing, but I'm pining to hear who get's in his museum in Toledo-or wherever it is- like I'm waiting for the next John Hughes film or hoping Brett Easton Ellis writes just one book (assuming he's still with us). And if you think that the once venerable Rolling Stone sets the standard for music journalism, you're probably also the one guy who still thinks SNL sets the standard for comedy. I saw Don Henley asked about Linda's inclusion in this thing, and he didn't know if she was or wasn't. I'd have been disappointed in him if he did. Like he said, it's a party, do a concert and send round press releases that are thoroughly forgotten 24 hours later. I guess I should be impressed that they're still significant enough for anyone to notice, never mind give a shit. But hey, I'm not judging, God knows I have plenty of meaningless grips with insignificant bodies too. So, as long as you're having fun and no gets hurt, have at it my friends, Jann Sucks! Jann Sucks...
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Post by erik on Sept 2, 2013 9:12:57 GMT -5
Quote by jhar26:
It all depends on who is in charge of quality control; and with Wenner and his toadies running the show, it's the equivalent of a bunch of foxes being security guards for a henhouse (IMHO). And the way things are going, we may very well have Mariah Carey and Britney Spears in there.
What I think most of us are asking for is an actual look at the history and the facts with the biases being tempered, and that's pretty much it. Maybe it maddens us more than it should, but the near-total lack of objectivity when it comes to Linda, and the enormous influence she clearly has had, is quite disgusting.
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Post by sliderocker on Sept 2, 2013 13:35:51 GMT -5
Well, I don't object to some of those who were more critics favorites than public's favorites getting in because some of those were indeed very good in my opinion while some of the general public's favorites were/are almost embarrassing. I wouldn't want it to be just done by a public vote because that would mean that ten years from now we'd have a HOF full of Mariah Carey and Britney Spears types. So I'm in favor of some (for lack of a better word) quality control. If that sounds like snobism I'm sorry, but that's my honest opinion. But I don't want it to be up to just a few self-appointed critics either. Perhaps it should be a combination of the two where there's a critics vote and a public vote with each counting for 50%. Induct four acts each year this way plus one act chosen exclusively by the critics to give artists that are less high profile but also very important also a chance to get in. Only problem is, who gets to decide who the nominees are? If it's the public half of it will be crap. If it's the critics they can still boycot the likes of a Ronstadt. So I don't think that there really is a perfect formula. I don't object to the artists so much as I object to the critics and the idea that what they value is more important than what the public values. The critics have always - always - slammed the public's taste in music, for making this record and artist more popular than that record and artist. But, that's a lying and dishonest con, for if the public was taken with the artists the critics liked (and many times they were), the critics would more than likely eventually dislike that artist as well. Critics prefer the artists who don't show up on the public's radar. As for not wanting the public to decide who gets in, well, here's the problem with that idea. The joke that is the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is first and foremost, a business. Dedicated to the idea of making money. Money which can only come from one main source: the public. If the hall's nominating members only select the artists they like, why the hell should they expect the public to come to their mueseum, pay the admission fees and see things associated with the artists only they liked? I don't buy into your argument that if the public gets to nominate and induct the artists, that half would be crap. Crap is subjective. More of a "I don't like this artist and I think the public was wrong for voting them in." That's what it comes down to, what's crap to you or me may not be crap to someone else, and vice versa. But, I don't think the opinions of the critics should carry more weight than the public because it's the same subjectiveness: it's one person giving you his or her opinion, which can be right on the money or full of sh*t. That critic is also a member of the public. If the R&RHoF ever inducts Mariah Carey (which is likely in my estimation) or Britney Spears (unlikely), it will be because they will be voted in by the critics and music industry insiders who make up the hall. They won't be voted in the public, even though the public now gets some say. They can nominate one artist but their votes only count as one-third of a single vote, or some such nonsensical bullsh*t. That seems more of a design to insure the main voting members can override and veto the acts the public wants in, but the hall doesn't necessarily want in. |
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Post by philly on Sept 2, 2013 21:32:11 GMT -5
I think some of you guys are really paying much too much attention to that HOF. On the one hand it's "screw 'em", but on the other hand every time I'm coming here it's a topic of discussion. I don't think it's that important. Jan Wenner doesn't like her? Ok, that's one guy. Who cares? The HOF is losing more of whatever credibility it had with each year that goes by anyway. Early on it was ok in that only great artists got in there. Some were missing, but no problem. They could always put them in there later on. But each year it's getting worse and worse and ten years from now some of the deserving nominees might not even WANT to be inducted anymore because HOF-er is no longer a quality label. I agree with you, but it's like the situation where a father doesn't want his daughter dating someone, but if that someone says they didn't want to date her it becomes the argument: "What? Why. isn't she good enough for you?" When Linda's not nominated every year, people come out of the woodwork trying to explain why she's unworthy, etc. to people who simply ask why she's not already in. Their excuses become more twisted every year, it's quite amusing actually. Like you mentioned, the people they put in each year are of lessening magnitude in general. I think there was some rocker a couple years ago who said he was fed up with the RRHOF and wouldn't care to be in it now... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 5:44:33 GMT -5
Like you mentioned, the people they put in each year are of lessening magnitude in general. I think there was some rocker a couple years ago who said he was fed up with the RRHOF and wouldn't care to be in it now... Then there was the case of Johnny Lydon (aka Johnny Rotten) who sneered at the Hall of Shame induction.. made me admire the guy even more... |
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Post by jhar26 on Sept 3, 2013 9:41:50 GMT -5
Well, I don't object to some of those who were more critics favorites than public's favorites getting in because some of those were indeed very good in my opinion while some of the general public's favorites were/are almost embarrassing. I wouldn't want it to be just done by a public vote because that would mean that ten years from now we'd have a HOF full of Mariah Carey and Britney Spears types. So I'm in favor of some (for lack of a better word) quality control. If that sounds like snobism I'm sorry, but that's my honest opinion. But I don't want it to be up to just a few self-appointed critics either. Perhaps it should be a combination of the two where there's a critics vote and a public vote with each counting for 50%. Induct four acts each year this way plus one act chosen exclusively by the critics to give artists that are less high profile but also very important also a chance to get in. Only problem is, who gets to decide who the nominees are? If it's the public half of it will be crap. If it's the critics they can still boycot the likes of a Ronstadt. So I don't think that there really is a perfect formula. I don't object to the artists so much as I object to the critics and the idea that what they value is more important than what the public values. The critics have always - always - slammed the public's taste in music, for making this record and artist more popular than that record and artist. But, that's a lying and dishonest con, for if the public was taken with the artists the critics liked (and many times they were), the critics would more than likely eventually dislike that artist as well. Critics prefer the artists who don't show up on the public's radar. As for not wanting the public to decide who gets in, well, here's the problem with that idea. The joke that is the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is first and foremost, a business. Dedicated to the idea of making money. Money which can only come from one main source: the public. If the hall's nominating members only select the artists they like, why the hell should they expect the public to come to their mueseum, pay the admission fees and see things associated with the artists only they liked? I don't buy into your argument that if the public gets to nominate and induct the artists, that half would be crap. Crap is subjective. More of a "I don't like this artist and I think the public was wrong for voting them in." That's what it comes down to, what's crap to you or me may not be crap to someone else, and vice versa. But, I don't think the opinions of the critics should carry more weight than the public because it's the same subjectiveness: it's one person giving you his or her opinion, which can be right on the money or full of sh*t. That critic is also a member of the public. If the R&RHoF ever inducts Mariah Carey (which is likely in my estimation) or Britney Spears (unlikely), it will be because they will be voted in by the critics and music industry insiders who make up the hall. They won't be voted in the public, even though the public now gets some say. They can nominate one artist but their votes only count as one-third of a single vote, or some such nonsensical bullsh*t. That seems more of a design to insure the main voting members can override and veto the acts the public wants in, but the hall doesn't necessarily want in. Well, let me put it like this - the critics are more prejudiced than the public while the public is clueless. Ask the average guy on the street who Lou Reed is or Randy Newman and I bet that most wouldn't have the faintest idea. I don't see how a public who's interest in music doesn't go beyond Rihanna or Justin Bieber (exaggerating a bit to make my point) could vote on anything that is supposed to be of historical significance like a HOF. They can't simply because they are unfamiliar with even the most important (including popular) artists of any other era than their own. And even when it comes to their own era that knowledge is questionable in the case of 'casual' fans who make up the vast majority. Critics may get it wrong, and they often do in fact. But at least they know who's who. |
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Post by the Scribe on Sept 3, 2013 12:34:02 GMT -5
A friend who knows many in Ronstadt's old camp as well as Ronstadt herself told me when I contacted him about Linda's disclosure of her condition, told me he was backstage at a show of Jackson Browne and Joan Baez recently and ran into Linda backstage. He asked about the "ski poles" she had with her and she told him about her condition. This was before the press release. He was told by some in the know that she has been approached about many of these awards in the last several years and she turns them down. He was told she is scared of being shown in a wheel chair. I don't know if this is true or not, Julio heard it second hand. I find it more than a bit odd that she has not been honoured for lifetime awards, maybe this is the reason why. RRHF I wouldn't imagine asks the nominated for the green light. Mike, I had heard that was the case even before she was sick, that being she does not like and usually would not accept any awards unless it was important to her like the ALMA Award. I am sure she would be happy for the Kennedy Center Honor as she wouldn't even have to perform. Her personality doesn't seem to allow her the benefit of accolades of any kind. Which recent interview had her saying she didn't even want to do the memoir followed by a very revealing comment I need to look for now. ha She is so funny! (and different) |
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Post by sliderocker on Sept 3, 2013 13:49:02 GMT -5
Well, let me put it like this - the critics are more prejudiced than the public while the public is clueless. Ask the average guy on the street who Lou Reed is or Randy Newman and I bet that most wouldn't have the faintest idea. I don't see how a public who's interest in music doesn't go beyond Rihanna or Justin Bieber (exaggerating a bit to make my point) could vote on anything that is supposed to be of historical significance like a HOF. They can't simply because they are unfamiliar with even the most important (including popular) artists of any other era than their own. And even when it comes to their own era that knowledge is questionable in the case of 'casual' fans who make up the vast majority. Critics may get it wrong, and they often do in fact. But at least they know who's who. Critics are prejudiced, I agree, but that doesn't mean that their observations are valid. It's still just their personal opinion, same as an ordinary person but for which they get paid to espouse that opinion. I wouldn't say the public is totally clueless so much as they are forgetful. I'm speaking of the ones who were around when artists like Lou Reed and Randy Newman had higher profiles than what they do now. You can't expect someone who wasn't around when those guys were at their peak to be fans. Each generation chooses their own favorites but there's no obligation that a newer generation has to like an older generation's heroes. Nice when it does happen but those who remain in the public's mind are there because they did do something right with their music. But, as for the "newer" ones who are around today, only a small handful are likely be in the public's mind two or three decades from now. The vast majority will become like many of the artists from earlier generations. Mostly forgotten. Now, as to the critics who are nominating members of the R&RHoF, again, the hall has criteria they are supposed to follow, and not their own personal likes and dislikes. But, I've got a feeling that with all of the nominating members, the criteria is their own personal likes and dislikes, and not the criteria the hall established as guidelines for nominating an artist or band. The nomination process should be on the merits of the artists and bands and not on a critic's personal like or dislike. What good is having guidelines if you're going to ignore them in favor of your own lieks and dislieks? |
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Post by erik on Sept 3, 2013 17:31:48 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
I have the sneaking suspicion that these clowns make up the rules as they go, and every year those rules somehow change. How else does one account for the number of times a rap act is automatically inducted, even though rap hasn't one f***ing thing to do with the growth of Rock And Roll?
Maybe Linda can show up at the RRHOF induction ceremonies in her wheelchair, defiant of what all the schmucks who run the joint have ever said about her, and get up out of her wheelchair to accept the award. I would recommend, however, that she avoid the obvious by saying "Mein Fuhrer! I can walk!" (a la Peter Sellers in DOCTOR STRANGELOVE) (LOL).
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Post by Robert Morse on Sept 3, 2013 18:01:21 GMT -5
My guess is Linda gives the RRHOF much less thought than many on the board do - probably is not something she is losing any sleep over.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 19:16:20 GMT -5
Re: the Hall of Shame, as Linda would probably eloquently put it:
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Post by erik on Sept 4, 2013 9:11:43 GMT -5
Not that this necessarily matters any in the long run, but country singer/songwriter Gretchen Peters, who wrote "Independence Day" for Martina McBride and who is a very big supporter and fan of Linda's, had this to say about Linda's Parkinson's diagnosis and the RRHOF:
"The news that Linda Ronstadt has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease - and that her glorious voice has been silenced forever - hit me unexpectedly hard. Maybe it's that she was a beacon for all of us adolescent 'girls with guitars' in the late seventies, or that she showed us how cool country music was (previously unthinkable to a hippie kid from Boulder, Colorado), or schooled us in great songwriting by bringing the work of JD Souther, Jackson Browne, Karla Bonoff, Randy Newman and Jimmy Webb to the world; but probably because the sheer beauty of her gift is something that, in a just world, would never be taken away.
For years I've been mystified by her exclusion from the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame. The woman is a treasure. She has broken commercial records, artistic boundaries, and countless hearts. I'm so sad that we won't hear her sing again, but so glad we have her body of work to love, listen to and learn from. I must have played this song, "Adios", twenty times in the past few days - written by the great Jimmy Webb, with an assist from Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys on background vocals. And Jann Wenner, if you're listening - she may not care, but lots of us do. It's time to put her in the Rock Hall, now."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 10:14:17 GMT -5
Thanks Erik.. I can't improve on that.. hear that Jann Wenner??!!
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Post by the Scribe on Sept 4, 2013 12:53:29 GMT -5
Not that this necessarily matters any in the long run, but country singer/songwriter Gretchen Peters, who wrote "Independence Day" for Martina McBride and who is a very big supporter and fan of Linda's, had this to say about Linda's Parkinson's diagnosis and the RRHOF: " The news that Linda Ronstadt has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease - and that her glorious voice has been silenced forever - hit me unexpectedly hard. Maybe it's that she was a beacon for all of us adolescent 'girls with guitars' in the late seventies, or that she showed us how cool country music was (previously unthinkable to a hippie kid from Boulder, Colorado), or schooled us in great songwriting by bringing the work of JD Souther, Jackson Browne, Karla Bonoff, Randy Newman and Jimmy Webb to the world; but probably because the sheer beauty of her gift is something that, in a just world, would never be taken away.
For years I've been mystified by her exclusion from the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame. The woman is a treasure. She has broken commercial records, artistic boundaries, and countless hearts. I'm so sad that we won't hear her sing again, but so glad we have her body of work to love, listen to and learn from. I must have played this song, "Adios", twenty times in the past few days - written by the great Jimmy Webb, with an assist from Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys on background vocals. And Jann Wenner, if you're listening - she may not care, but lots of us do. It's time to put her in the Rock Hall, now." I predict they (RRHOF) will do anything to get her in now. People are pissed and there must be some pressure on those in charge from fans (which includes other musicians, singers, songwriters, etc.) to get her included whether Linda herself wants it or not. |
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Post by erik on Sept 5, 2013 9:08:09 GMT -5
What is so funny (at least to me) is that, for all the emphasis the hoity-toity critics place on songwriting and pointing out that Linda did so little of it, so many of her biggest defenders and supporters are folks like Gretchen who are singer/songwriters themselves, and who appreciate a presence like Linda in the world. It's kind of a heartening development (IMHO).
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