ted
A Number and a Name
Posts: 11
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Post by ted on Jun 21, 2020 19:40:49 GMT -5
Jan Wenner certainly doesn't come across very well in this bio, to say the least.
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Post by Larry Today on Jun 22, 2020 21:42:20 GMT -5
Sliderocker, Linda Fan 5, Pop80, and eddieinnj, this pose is not flirty. Look again. It says, "Roll over and take it." It is a whorehouse photo. It's not a cute pose with a loose shoulder strap. I'm not sure why you are so adamant about defending Annie Liebowitz. Notice I'm not even disagreeing with your assessment of Jann Wenner as a low dog. He is. But Annie has no excuse including that obtuse quote provided by Pop80 that seems to deal with her coming to terms with liking women?? I'm not even sure. How does she escape from the criticism?
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Post by mused on Jun 23, 2020 1:57:04 GMT -5
...its 2020/////isn't the collective reading waaaay wayaaaay too much into this?
Good for Re Educational purposes...but seriously,,,,,,I would think one being at that level of fame, feeling good in their skin and sex and being adored by the masses could of easily "slipped" into obscurity of the mind, so to speak to "go with the flow" for the pic.....there obviously wasnt that much forethought....just habit
and Jann?? subtle misogynistic gay man much or am I missing something......oh! gay Annie? San Francisco Goes West,,,,er East and starts a Linda trend......they all loved her to one degree or another!
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jun 23, 2020 8:03:00 GMT -5
Great discussion. Larry Today, I am not defending Annie at all. She was hired by Rolling Stone. Some people in the business world are hired as they are perceived to have the proper mindset to be employed. For all I know (I had to be reminded of the one paragraph Pop posted), Annie agreed to it and it was her intention to give her boss what he wanted. I just don't have the facts to say that. She could have suggested this little play with Linda and the rest is hx. I am not saying that as fact. I guess after the Lennon/Ono cover this Linda shoot did not shock me. The Lennon one was not shocking so much as like visual tmi for me lol!!! eddiejinnj
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Post by sliderocker on Jun 23, 2020 12:33:22 GMT -5
Sliderocker, Linda Fan 5, Pop80, and eddieinnj, this pose is not flirty. Look again. It says, "Roll over and take it." It is a whorehouse photo. It's not a cute pose with a loose shoulder strap. I'm not sure why you are so adamant about defending Annie Liebowitz. Notice I'm not even disagreeing with your assessment of Jann Wenner as a low dog. He is. But Annie has no excuse including that obtuse quote provided by Pop80 that seems to deal with her coming to terms with liking women?? I'm not even sure. How does she escape from the criticism? As I said, Larry, I agree with you to a point, but again, you are applying a standard of today that did not exist in the 70s. Jann Wenner had become a somewhat powerful man by the 70s and as the old saying goes, absolute power corrupts. I've never cared for Wenner and some of his stooges. Annie was an employee. If your boss tells you to do something and you don't like it, do you have a choice to take the assignment or tell your boss that you don't want to do that? You know the answer to that question. Wenner was enough of a petty man that he could've retaliated against Annie by giving photo shoot assignments to someone else or by terminating her services altogether. As for Linda, she knew the photographs were being taken. She could've said, "No, I don't want to do this." What could Wenner or Annie Leibowitz had done if Linda had said she didn't agree to the photo ideas? Linda was unhappy with the photo shoot but she didn't complain until after the photos were used in Rolling Stone. What did she think Annie was going to do? Take the photos for her private collection? If she didn't like the photos that were taken, why didn't she complain to Peter Asher, her manager, before the photos were published in Rolling Stone? And if she did, why didn't Asher contact Rolling Stone about the photos and ask them politely not to use the photographs with the upcoming article? And failing that, threaten Wenner and Rolling Stone with legal action if they did use the photos? Putting pressure on Rolling Stone not to use the photos would've been part of his Peter's job as Linda's manager and taking the heat for the pressure. But, Peter managed other clients besides Linda. Clients like James Taylor who appeared in the pages of Rolling Stone and who could've been targeted for retaliation by Rolling Stone and Wenner. But, I also think if Linda had complained to Annie about taking the photos but did them anyway and then complained to Peter, and then he consulted with an attorney, it would've fallen back into Linda's lap. Linda could've said no and she should've said no but she let the photos be taken. The burden would've been on Linda to prove she was pressured by Annie on behalf of Rolling Stone into doing that particular photo shoot. Did Linda or Peter have a written contract with Annie and/or Rolling Stone stating no provocative photos could be taken? Or that Linda and/or Peter had prior approval as to what photos could be used in conjunction with the article? It's hindsight now, but we know the answers to these last two questions. Linda agreed to the photo ideas and the photo shoot, even if she protested. She did them anyway. If she complained to Peter Asher immediately afterwards and he did nothing, he knew Linda was on the hook because she went ahead and did the photos anyway. Or because he managed other artists besides Linda, there was a conflict of interest in getting tough with Jann Wenner and Rolling Stone because Wenner could've retaliated against those artists as well as Linda. And that posed a risk to Asher as well because the other artists might have taken the view the photos were not that big a deal. And those artists might have terminated their contracts with him. And here's another question you need to answer: who in the mid-to-late 1970s when these photos were taken and used in Rolling Stone, knew the behind the scenes story of what Wenner wanted? The photos didn't hurt Linda's career none. Wenner was and is a b*st*rd. If Annie had said no, chances are Wenner, being the petty man he is, would've fired her and then trashed her with other newspapers and magazines thinking about using her claiming he had complaints about the photos she took; that the photo ideas were hers. Making it harder for her to be hired on with other companies. And chances are other newspaper and magazine editors and/or publishers would've known the truth of the matter because they all tend to have that same mentality. And what Wenner would've really been saying in trashing Leibowitz was that she wasn't a team player, wouldn't play ball. And all of this is conjecture but what I'm really saying is we didn't know the behind the scenes story back when this happened. It was the 1970s and you're trying to apply 2020 standards which didn't exist in the 70s, trying to rewrite history. Wenner was and still is a b*st*rd. We don't know if Annie objected at the time or if her own standards modified over the years and she doesn't see anything wrong now. Are you the same person now that you were in the 70s? Were you even around in the 70s?What happened in the past can't be changed. If I had known Linda in the 70s and had known what Wenner wanted something derogatory from Annie on that photo shoot, I would've decked him and knocked him cold and destroyed Annie's photo film. But, again, it's not something anyone likely knew in the 70s. ANd if Linda complained and her manager did nothing, well, she didn't have to do the photos, she could've said no and Asher did nothing to prevent the photos from being published.
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Post by memac62 on Jun 23, 2020 14:16:20 GMT -5
This is from a NY Times interview dated September 5,2019:
But there was that famous 1976 Rolling Stone cover where you’re in red lingerie with one strap undone. In Joe Hagan’s book about the magazine’s founder, Jann S. Wenner, he reports that Wenner told the photographer Annie Leibovitz to make you look like “a Tijuana whore.”
She had an agenda. I was naïve. I said, “I don’t wear red underwear.” She said, “I’ll let you see the pictures before we put them out.” Sure enough, she brought the pictures over to [Ronstadt’s producer and manager] Peter Asher’s house, and we said, “No, you can’t use that.” She said, “Well, I just said I’d let you see them. I didn’t say I’d let you choose them.” That was really upsetting.
[In an email response, Leibovitz called Ronstadt “anything but naïve,” adding that Wenner gave her no direction for the shoot. Leibovitz wrote that Asher was the one who didn’t want the pictures to run, but that, privately, Ronstadt “told me to run them.”]
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Post by Larry Today on Jul 8, 2020 18:43:06 GMT -5
First of all, Eddiejinnj, thank you for welcoming me to the forum. I've read it for years and enjoy the updates I get on Linda appearances, etc. I'm one of many on here who consider Linda to be the best singer of all time. Her music has meant more to me than any other artist, though I love music in general.
Sliderocker, I'm afraid we are never going to agree on this issue of discussion, but I'll respond to your comments and questions from your latest post. First off, I want to make sure we are talking about the same photograph. I don't object to the cover photo in the red slip, with the errant strap. It's the one where Linda is face down on the bed with her legs spread. Even Playboy photographers included the model's face. This is a picture of the back of Linda's head. Not subtle.
What standards am I trying to apply in 2020 that weren't around in the 70's? Work ethics? They've been around since way before the 70's. Sir Thomas More gave up his job and his head to stick to his principals. During the 50's, people had their careers ruined because they refused to name names. Those are extreme examples of people doing what they think is right, but less dramatic ones happen every day. You ask what do you do if your boss tells you to do something and you don't like it. Depends on the person and the situation. I was in sales for many years, a world where the quest for a commission led many people to mislead if not downright cheat customers. I never did, though I was encouraged to do so at times. Maybe Annie would have lost her job if she had refused to bastardize her art. Worse things have happened. I think she is culpable, I know you do not.
Yes, I was around in the 70's. I was playing Hasten Down The Wind in my room until my parents begged for mercy. That is the album that hit me the hardest out of all of them. We will have to agree to disagree about Annie, but I know we agree on Linda's talent.
A good day to all on the forum.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jul 9, 2020 6:35:31 GMT -5
Larry, you had me at "the best singer in the world." LOL eddiejinnj
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Post by mused on Jul 9, 2020 7:19:32 GMT -5
from above, the 2019 interview; Linda: "That was really upsetting."
[In an email response, Leibovitz called Ronstadt “anything but naïve,” adding that Wenner gave her no direction for the shoot. Leibovitz wrote that Asher was the one who didn’t want the pictures to run, but that, privately, Ronstadt “told me to run them.”]
IF MamaCittah REMEMBERS an EMOTION tied to this event....I TAKE THAT as the TRUTH anyday over Liebovitz' triangulating double entendre....Obviously Annie knew she got the "goods" on an American Sweetheart and ran all the way to the head of the line for shot snagger deluxe
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jul 9, 2020 8:53:24 GMT -5
That is kind of what I was just thinking in a way. I believe that maybe Linda has some kind of emotion tied to it but at times her memory isn't the best. She kind of said that about herself at times pretty much always. If she has the emotion there was some turmoil maybe and I say maybe she just said to Leibovitz to run them to stop turmoil or did she use the same reasoning as the HDTW cover shot? IMO, the intrique as to the exact facts is bigger than the event itself though it was for a RS cover and major story that ran despite whatever underlying incidents. That and I think people thought it would be a cat fight between Linda and Annie lol!!! I guess the article not a big deal to me especially being a youngin when short shorts were in. She had more on in the article than most at the beaches of CA. Also, Linda had said in interviews that her Dad said don't ever let them photo you naked to paraphrase him. So maybe it was a challenge in some people's mind. I am not saying who. :-) eddiejinnj
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Post by Linda Fan 5 on Jul 9, 2020 13:51:33 GMT -5
Above all Ronstadt cared about the music and a lot the other (image) stuff she appeared to do on instinct or spontaneously. Her numerous mid to late 70s photo shoots saw her working with the best photographers in the world who liked how natural, carefree and collaborative she was. Her gender caused them to come at her with glamour and sexy ideas, Wisely she nixed the high fashion stuff as not being right for her. So often wardrobe was brought to her and selected on the fly. Including the get closer dress. She was a willing and unguarded subject according to Kosh, Jim Shea, Aaron Rapoport and so many others. Annie speaks highly of her. Interestingly linda had shot an alternate cover for simple dreams wearing white lingerie. The flap with the Annie shoot contributed to her to rethinking it and a kimono was substituted. Linda said she photographs well “from a certain angle” and said if sexy photos helped sell records she was fine with that (it is a facet of her personality, she said, just not the only one) success meant making more music with better musicians. Linda could have adopted a Helen Reddy, Anne Murray type look. She did not. And I’m glad. The total package that is Linda Ronstadt includes how gorgeous she is. She jogged and dieted and lifted weights and showed it off. Peter Asher was understandably protective, it was his job to be, perhaps sensing that the sexiness of her late 70s image was beginning to overwhelm things. Many years later when asked about things she would change she said she’d take the flower out of her hair. She has never said she regretted any thing she wore as being too skimpy or inappropriate. She clearly did not want the lbutt shot of her reaching for a glass of water to be published. I can see why. It was racy. But I remember barely glancing at it. Who wants any photo of her without her eyes? The one of her In short shorts at the ironing board is my favoriite. Peter freaked at the red slip shots, Linda likely shrugged. This is the same Linda who chose not to airbrush the hasten cover, did the silk purse one as a joke. This shoot gets so much attention but I thought the pink Scavullo shot with the cowboy boots, Pink tights and lingerie was the “sexiest” shoot she ever did. May I say something about the seventies. No doubt women, including Linda, were objectified, and that was writing and not “woke”. However, We all showed alarming amounts of skin then. And I mean GUYS. Bucky Dent poses in an overtly sexy way. So did Burt Reynolds. Orleans had the band nude on a cover. Naked guys on Rush and Yes LP covers. It was a thing. I consider Linda an intelligent participant in something that at the time felt normal , kind of hippy-ish and free of fuddy duddy hang ups. Even If an artist chooses to pose nude, that can be art and empowering. In Linda’s case her style naturally changed with the times and the culture in ways that made perfect sense.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jul 10, 2020 6:23:54 GMT -5
"Who wears short shorts?" eddiejinnj
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Post by alyn on Jul 10, 2020 7:00:19 GMT -5
"Who wears short shorts?" eddiejinnj oh god... I had a terrible Freddie and The Dreamers flashback... I strongly suggest you don't search for Short Shorts on Youtube...don't do it.... don't!
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jul 10, 2020 7:15:28 GMT -5
Hey tough guy lol I won't I won't!!!! Freddie and The Dreamers I will look up!!! eddiejinnj
PS: I had not heard of this British band. Seem interesting. Their biggest fame was when I was an infant to toddler!!
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Post by alyn on Jul 10, 2020 9:18:56 GMT -5
Some great music did come out of Great Britain in the mid-1960s, but Freddie and the Dreamers..... pretty embarrassing to say the least, I can only apologise... let's not go down that Short Shorts avenue again...ever! Speaking of Sh*rt Sh*rts, did you call them Bum Freezers over there or was that another 'Great British' phrase....
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jul 10, 2020 19:29:32 GMT -5
Hey, I actually look good in OP (Ocean Pacific)cord surfer shorts. These old "bum freezers" are cool. Old OP's can bring some bucks. But* DEAL!!!!! :-) eddiejinnj
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Post by alyn on Jul 11, 2020 3:42:45 GMT -5
I'm thinking Bum Freezers were cut off jeans (to the shortest point) whereas Hot Pants were specifically made short shorts... I'm stretching my fashion knowledge here, even just considering this :-) Are Ocean Pacifics like Bermuda Shorts?
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jul 11, 2020 6:43:23 GMT -5
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Post by musedeva on Jul 11, 2020 17:16:55 GMT -5
THOSE!! are tasty!
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Post by alyn on Jul 13, 2020 2:21:47 GMT -5
not what I expected at all.... I'm learning all the time :-) are they corduroy? I had a mate with a theory that grasshoppers wore corduroy trousers and that's how they made a noise when they rubbed their legs together...
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jul 13, 2020 7:23:02 GMT -5
Well, we have gotten way off course cuz of the moderator lol but the ones I am talking about were cords. They did make other shorts and bathing suits but those became legendary, imo. eddiejinnj
Were the grasshopper cords made by "Wee" (play on the brand Lee), Alyn?
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Post by alyn on Jul 14, 2020 2:11:18 GMT -5
I think you've nailed it there Eddie :-)
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