A 1983 Interview With Noted Engineer/Producer Val Garay

[philly]

Originally from the October 1983 issue of Recording Engineer/Producer magazine, Val Garay, who worked with Peter Asher on 6 of Linda's albums, talks about them in these excerpts from the article. The whole 8 page article is here: www.prosoundweb.com/article/re_p_files_an_interview_with_noted_engineer_producer_val_garay/

I never knew Hoyt trashed Linda...what did he say?


RE/P Files: An Interview With Noted
Engineer/Producer Val Garay
I make most of my records live with very few overdubs. I think that records are better that way, especially if you’re working with great singers, which I have had the great fortune to do.

Yet certain singers thrive on the overdubbing process. I’ve never seen a great singer, who overdubs his vocal, sing a part from top to bottom, and use 98 percent of it. The minute they get into the overdub design of doing vocals, they’ll do eight takes and comp (compile or combine) eight to one track, and then do eight more and comp them. Basically what they do is use their ear as a singer to pick what they sing best, and sort of assemble the finished vocal track mechanically. In the end, it usually sounds like they sang it from top to bottom.

Don Henley does that very well—although I don’t know why he does it, because he’s a great singer. In fact, all the Eagles did it that way for years. Jackson Browne does it the same way. They go as far as comping syllables. “Well, the t-h-e of that word is a little flat.” So they’ll switch at that point to another vocal track that has that syllable a little more in tune. The layman can’t really hear all these comps. I did that with Randy Meisner’s album; there were a million switches in that.

With the Eagles, (Meisner) was used to singing in only one register, which was really high. But for a solo record, where you’re the lead singer, you have to cover all the areas. His lower ranges were a little more tentative, and he would sing out of tune more often. In order to get it in tune, we had to do the vocal tracks that way.

But when you have a singer like Martha (Davis, of the Motels), Kim Carnes, Linda Ronstadt, or James Taylor, those people are great singers. They have great intonation. The best vocal performances I ever recorded with Linda were the live ones with a few fixes—you fix one word here, and one word there. “Blue Bayou” was live; “Ooh, Baby Baby” was live. In fact, that whole record was. Also, “Bette Davis Eyes” by Kim was totally live.

RC: I remember reading a couple of reviews about Linda Ronstadt’s album to the effect that, because the recording sounded so perfect, the critics thought it had been “produced to death.” How do you react to such comments.?

VG: The pre-production was really good. The interesting thing is that Linda never learned the songs until she got in the studio. She would sort of sluff her way through the rehearsals. The band would learn the songs, but she wouldn’t even know the lyrics most of the time—she’d be reading from a sheet! But she’s such a great singer that she can evoke emotions that sound like she’s torn. She’d usually learn the lyrics in a couple of run-downs in the studio.

Martha (Davis) is a great singer. When you have someone that sings as well as she does, and a band that’s got the tune down—and they’re interacting in a live-performance situation, even on a record—it’s much more real and emotional, and more moving, when it’s all going down at once, and one person is playing off the other. If you have a strong drummer that doesn’t move if the singer rushes or drags, then the track stays steady; the singer is singing and the band is following the singer, instead of a singer following a music track that’s [already] laid. It’s a whole different method. That’s why Elvis Presley records made in the Fifties still hold up; they were done Iive.
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RC: You’re no longer something that they discovered?

VG: Right. I watched Hoyt Axton completely berate and belittle Linda for selling out when she made “Heart Like a Wheel,” because he was this hard-core country singer. She worked her ass off thinking that she was making a sound, artistic endeavor. Because it sold 2 1/2 million records does not mean she sold out. But, to him it did, because she was no longer his discovery.
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I have opinions and feelings; you don’t have to use them, or listen to them. But to not allow me to say them is sort of cheating oneself, because I have good ideas. Obviously, that’s been proven. Peter [Asher] listened to my ideas for enough years, so I figure if he’s as smart as he is, somebody else should listen, too!

RC: Speaking of Peter Asher, he brought you Linda’s last album to mix, didn’t he?

VG: No. Not actually, I was contracted to do that album based on the kind of deals we made in years previous. I started recording that album about two years ago. We cut five or six tunes. Then I got in the middle of another album - I can’t remember who it was at the time—and Linda got into the Broadway play [Pirates of Penzance], then into the movie. Before we knew it, a year had gone by.

At that point, I was unavailable, and they needed to finish the album. So we all talked about it when they got back to LA. They came up with the idea of doing it with [engineer] George [Massenburg], who is a very close friend of mine, and a marvelous engineer.

RC: So you were familiar with the album when the time came for you to mix it?

VG: No. They spent another seven or eight months recording more material and, out of the five or six tracks that I recorded, I think they kept three. When it came time to mix the record, George, having worked with Earth, Wind and Fire for all those years, had his style of mixing with those people, and Peter and Linda had gotten very used to my style of mixing.

They started mixing with George, and weren’t happy with the results—I believe based mainly on the fact that Peter liked my style of mixing. Not because I’m a better mixer, because I think George is every bit as good as I am as a mixer. They then approached me on the basis of: “We’re old friends; would you do us a favor?” I was right in the middle of another project. “Just give us five days of your time, and try to mix some of this album for us.” So I said, “Sure.”

I mixed about five or six tracks, and they played them for George so he could get his bearings, because I mixed some of the things that he’d recorded. Now, when you’re a good engineer, you hear things—balance, levels, EQ, etc.—a certain way. And when somebody else changes that, it’s instantly apparent what they’ve changed.

So, when I mixed a couple of his tunes he became aware of what Peter and Linda were looking for, and remixed again the tracks that I had mixed. The tracks were even more to their [Peter and Linda’s] liking. George ended up mixing better than half the album, and I did the rest.

[sliderocker]

Fascinating read...likewise, never knew Hoyt Axton trashing Linda for being successful on "Heart Like a Wheel." That startled me. Couldn't imagine he'd have claimed her as his discovery as didn't think he figured in her career in the 60s, although he could have. Maybe he didn't like it that she was moving away from the country sound she was more known for, but which was mostly unsuccessful and moving to a rock and country rock sound? Or maybe he was all bent out of shape because maybe he could see HLAW was going to be a big success and none of the songs were his? He had some songs that had been big Top 40 hits courtesy of Three Dog Night and Ringo Starr, and his own "When the Morning Comes" (with Linda) had done some fair business on the pop charts. Axton was still living at the time of this interview, so just wonder if he read it and what his reaction, if any, might have been? Likewise, Linda's reaction? Makes me wonder when Linda talked to Rolling Stone about the lyrics for the second verse in "Try Me Again," about her friends bringing her down, being cynical, jealous and bitter because she had been successful, if Axton had been one of those people?

[Richard W]

Yeah, the Axton thing was a surprise, although I'd always wondered what happened between them. For a while there they were (musically) very close.

I assume the album under discussion is Get Closer? If so, makes me wonder what the extant songs are that didn't make the album. Makes me wonder and desire...

[eddiejinnj]

good insight slide re: try me again. he may have been in her mind amongst others when she wrote that. I think hoyt was taken with linda and he maybe hoped to work with her more or guide her career. he also, and I have no known knowledge of this, may have had other than professional feelings for her and when she got really big he viewed it as linda moving on without him kind of thing. artistically, hlaw should not be an album he should have had a problem with since it did have pure country in it. it all boils down imo to the fact that he wanted more involvement with linda in whatever way and to be her discoverer but that history did not happen. he probably personalized it and felt rejected in his own way. eddiejinnj

[eddiejinnj]

one of the outtakes was the "price of love" (is that the rt title? or is it "cost of love"?) that we have discussed before. I too would want to know if there are others. I think with her deserved resurgence, she will hopefully give the public more unreleased tracks. eddiejinnj

[Deleted]

This is kind of surprising to me, as Linda and Hoyt had worked together...

[erik]

Quote by robertaxel:

This is kind of surprising to me, as Linda and Hoyt had worked together...

And it may be a case of the pot calling the kettle black, since Hoyt wrote "Joy To The World", which spent five weeks at #1 for Three Dog Night in 1971 and which, presumably, made him a few bucks (this and the fact that his mother co-wrote "Heartbreak Hotel"). Besides, I don't think there was any guarantee that Heart Like A Wheel was a "sure thing" for Linda when it was released in late 1974, even though it did sell millions in the end.

[sliderocker]

Jun 9, 2014 8:54:44 GMT -5 eddiejinnj said:

good insight slide re: try me again. he may have been in her mind amongst others when she wrote that. I think hoyt was taken with linda and he maybe hoped to work with her more or guide her career. he also, and I have no known knowledge of this, may have had other than professional feelings for her and when she got really big he viewed it as linda moving on without him kind of thing. artistically, hlaw should not be an album he should have had a problem with since it did have pure country in it. it all boils down imo to the fact that he wanted more involvement with linda in whatever way and to be her discoverer but that history did not happen. he probably personalized it and felt rejected in his own way. eddiejinnj

It's possible Hoyt may have wanted to have a professional involvement with Linda, sort of like Dolly Parton and Poter Wagoner. That might have been possible at an earlier time, when Linda's solo career wasn't exactly setting the world on fire but by the time Hoyt and Linda recorded "When the Morning Comes," Linda's solo career was taking off through her own hard work. Hoyt likely did himself no favors by berating and belittling Linda on HLAW if he wanted to guide her career. Linda had already made her choice by going with Peter Asher as far as someone who would guide her career, and Asher was the right choice. Linda did show Axton some professional loyalty by doing some appearances with him to promote "When the Morning Comes" and "Lion in Winter," but the damage may have been done and she have wanted nothing to do with him after that episode.

[sliderocker]

Jun 9, 2014 9:38:12 GMT -5 erik said:

Quote by robertaxel:

This is kind of surprising to me, as Linda and Hoyt had worked together...

And it may be a case of the pot calling the kettle black, since Hoyt wrote "Joy To The World", which spent five weeks at #1 for Three Dog Night in 1971 and which, presumably, made him a few bucks (this and the fact that his mother co-wrote "Heartbreak Hotel"). Besides, I don't think there was any guarantee that Heart Like A Wheel was a "sure thing" for Linda when it was released in late 1974, even though it did sell millions in the end.

Axton also wrote "Never Been to Spain," another big hit for Three Dog Night (and incorporated by Elvis in his 1972 concerts) and "The No No Song" for Ringo. He also wrote "The Pusher" and "Snowblind Friend," on which Steppenwolf had recorded both songs. JTTW and NBTS both earned Axton a lot of big bucks as both of those songs became staples on oldies radio stations. If Axton had an issue with rock, that was something he would've been hypocritical on as he never refused the royalties that were earned from the rock artists who recorded his songs. On the song Ringo recorded, that somg was specifically written for him and it would be part of a doubled sided hit for Ringo as "Snookeroo" was on the flip.

But, my suspicion is that maybe Hoyt realized HLAW was going to be a success when released and hoped that Linda would record some of his songs for the album. For whatever reason, there are artists who can sense when another artist is about break out or explode and they want to be part of that success. Hoyt had big success as a songwriter but as an artist himself, he was only modestly successful. Writing songs for other artists was a good method to keep the money coming into your bank account while waiting for your own career to hopefully take off in similar fashion. Linda's success was meant to be because she worked at it and she earned it but Hoyt had no reason to belittle, berate and begrudge Linda her success. .

[I Collect Hearts]

I think we read too much musically into it. It may just be a case of a smitten ex-lover - supposedly Hoyt's "I Collect Hearts" is about Linda. We'll never know - Linda never talks about personal relationships and Hoyt's long dead. And he could have just been smitten without being a boyfriend - but at least one of his duets with Linda is about a broken relationship.

[Richard W]

Let's not forget "Boney Fingers"!

[sliderocker]

Jun 9, 2014 12:12:25 GMT -5 I Collect Hearts said:

I think we read too much musically into it. It may just be a case of a smitten ex-lover - supposedly Hoyt's "I Collect Hearts" is about Linda. We'll never know - Linda never talks about personal relationships and Hoyt's long dead. And he could have just been smitten without being a boyfriend - but at least one of his duets with Linda is about a broken relationship.

If we are talking about "Try Me Again," I don't know about reading too much into it as it was Linda herself who had said friends had turned against her because she had become successful. She never specified who the friends in question were but the turns wounded her deeply. That much is clear Val's interview in which he said watched Hoyt Axton completely berate and belittle Linda for "selling out" on "Heart Like a Wheel" wasn't about a personal relationship. It was more about Linda going more for a commercial (hit) sound. Garay didn't specify anything more or say anything which might have suggested something more. I'm not sure why Axton would've wanted or expected Linda to have stayed in a sound - the hard core country sound - that had mostly been an unsuccessful one for her. The music business isn't a business that tolerates failure after failure. In the 60s and 70s, an artist could get away with more failures than artists can get away with today, which is usually just one failure. HLAW was the catalyst for Linda but she never quite abandoned country music so much as embraced the rest of her musical roots, which included rock. That was her choice to make, not Hoyt's and what he did was uncalled for and as a friend, he should've been supportive of what she wanted to do.

[Richard W]

What's puzzling to me is that HLAW is an extension of the same "sound" that Linda had been pursuing in her solo career, i.e., country blended with rock and pop, plus a dash of r&b and folk. Any of her solo albums prior to HLAW reveal this same sound, so HLAW was simply the explosion at the end of the fuse lit by her previous records.

So it seems to me that if (if) Axton resented her success--a success that was hard won and was a true and consistent reflection of who Linda was as a singer and artist--that resentment was based on envy, the accusation of "selling out" completely baseless.

One has to wonder if (again, if) Axton's accusation of her "selling out" would have been leveled at her had HLAW been a commercial bomb.

[erik]

Quote by sliderocker:

I'm not sure why Axton would've wanted or expected Linda to have stayed in a sound - the hard core country sound - that had mostly been an unsuccessful one for her. The music business isn't a business that tolerates failure after failure. In the 60s and 70s, an artist could get away with more failures than artists can get away with today, which is usually just one failure. HLAW was the catalyst for Linda but she never quite abandoned country music so much as embraced the rest of her musical roots, which included rock. That was her choice to make, not Hoyt's and what he did was uncalled for and as a friend, he should've been supportive of what she wanted to do.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, the time allowed for an artist to grow was much more leisurely because the business hadn't yet become exclusively about money, though it took a long time (eight years) for Linda to find a niche that would work for her, which was what Heart Like A Wheel was. But that album was hardly the kind where anyone could say that Linda "sold out"; even very recently, she acknowledged that if that album had failed, it might have been Game Over for her.

I just don't know how what Hoyt was thinking when he took her to task for that album, especially when he himself wasn't exactly hard-core country. The only thing that I can think of is that Linda did record Hoyt's "Lightning Bar Blues" in 1973, but didn't put it on the album she was recording at the time, which was Don't Cry Now; it later showed up on the 1999 Linda Ronstadt Box Set. And besides that, I don't think Hoyt was particularly hard-core country; like Linda, his first success was during the 1960s folk music revival, and his first big songwriting credit was "Greenback Dollar", which was a sizable 1963 hit for the Kingston Trio. The mind does play with the idea of Linda recording that song, especially since, back in 1963, it was one of the first songs (if not indeed the first) that had the word "Damn" in its lyrics.

[sliderocker]

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, the time allowed for an artist to grow was much more leisurely because the business hadn't yet become exclusively about money, though it took a long time (eight years) for Linda to find a niche that would work for her, which was what Heart Like A Wheel was. But that album was hardly the kind where anyone could say that Linda "sold out"; even very recently, she acknowledged that if that album had failed, it might have been Game Over for her.

I think the record companies in the 50s, 60s and 70s understood it sometimes took some time for an artist to find what would work and what wouldn't. Also, back in the day, the companies considered the Big Six (RCA, Capitol, Columbia, Warners, MCA, Atlantic) were swamped by the smaller independent labels. The Big Six didn't control the market like they do today and if an artist couldn't score with them, it smarted when an artist went to a smaller label and then scored.

Linda was extremely fortunate on "Heart Like a Wheel" as she had already bolted from Capitol to Asylum but fulfilled her contract with Capitol because they had released her from her contract without a fight. Under that kind of circumstance, one would've expected Capitol not to promote HLAW like they did and make Linda a superstar in the process. But, they did, and Asylum benefitted from that success when Linda's next album for them was released. But, if Capitol had said "No, we're not going to push this album, Linda's no longer our artist and why should we help her and Asylum?," it's conceivable Linda's career could've been over.I choose to believe she would still have had a career but it might not have been huge as it became.


I just don't know how what Hoyt was thinking when he took her to task for that album, especially when he himself wasn't exactly hard-core country. The only thing that I can think of is that Linda did record Hoyt's "Lightning Bar Blues" in 1973, but didn't put it on the album she was recording at the time, which was Don't Cry Now; it later showed up on the 1999 Linda Ronstadt Box Set. And besides that, I don't think Hoyt was particularly hard-core country; like Linda, his first success was during the 1960s folk music revival, and his first big songwriting credit was "Greenback Dollar", which was a sizable 1963 hit for the Kingston Trio. The mind does play with the idea of Linda recording that song, especially since, back in 1963, it was one of the first songs (if not indeed the first) that had the word "Damn" in its lyrics.

I figure it had to be jealousy and envy at least because if Hoyt heard the HLAW songs before they were released, he knew, like the few who had been part of it knew, that it was going to be a success when it was released. Capitol was certainly excited enough and they had already lost Linda to Asylum. I figure Axton hoped Linda would've recorded and put some of his songs on HLAW and/or released as singles because of the money that could be made.

At 2.5 million copies sold on HLAW, the two cent songwriting and publishing royalties on each song would've been $25,000 to the songwriters and $25,000 to the publishers. More if the song had been released on a single. It wouldn't have mattered if the song was the non-hit on the B-side of a million selling single as it would've made the same amount of money. Of course, the A-side earned more money because of radio and tv airplay. Singer songwriter Van Morrison made over $400,000 from Rod Stewart's take on his song "Have I Told You Lately That I Love You" in the 90s. Most of that money came from the radio and tv airplay. As HLAW has been in print for years, the total sales may now be an eight digit number. It's a continuing source of income for any songwriter who had a song on that album. From outward appearances, Axton would've been a good fit for Linda as a songwriter but his little tirade on her may over HLAW have cost him big time.

[philly]

I see Hoyt started his own record label, Jeremiah Records, in 1978. So he might have had his own plans for her career. At least Linda didn't write a love song to him like Dolly did for Porter.

[sliderocker]

Jun 11, 2014 10:50:09 GMT -5 philly said:

I see Hoyt started his own record label, Jeremiah Records, in 1978. So he might have had his own plans for her career. At least Linda didn't write a love song to him like Dolly did for Porter.

Interesting tidbit there. Did Hoyt ever sign any other artist to his label? Most artists who had their own record label usually were the only artists on them because they were mostly vanity operations. They usually had no million selling hit singles and album sales were usually pretty low as well. Linda worked hard for her success and I think she wanted that success but she never compromised her musical integrity to have it. There were some things she could've done differently (like trying to write more songs) but she did it her way and she was right on the money. i don't know if Hoyt or anyone else could've gotten the same results in her career.

I couldn't have seen Linda writing a song for Hoyt the way Dolly did for Porter, as D&P were really at odds at the end of their association. Wagoner objected to Dolly's artistic desire to dip into the pop music world and tried to block her from doing that. The, when she was successful at it, he wanted part of the money she had made from her pop music success. He claimed he was owed part of it because he had apparently been her manager as well as singing partner. I think he also took part of her music publishing as well as when she split from him, she formed another publishing company. Dolly showed him a loyalty he didn't show her. I wouldn't have given him the first dime, much less write him a song. Had he had his way, Dolly's fortunes likely would've been much smaller than what they were. Hoyt's musical aspirations for Linda likewise might've resulted in her fortunes being less as well.

[Deleted]

Jun 9, 2014 10:56:57 GMT -5 sliderocker said:

Jun 9, 2014 8:54:44 GMT -5 eddiejinnj said:

good insight slide re: try me again. he may have been in her mind amongst others when she wrote that. I think hoyt was taken with linda and he maybe hoped to work with her more or guide her career. he also, and I have no known knowledge of this, may have had other than professional feelings for her and when she got really big he viewed it as linda moving on without him kind of thing. artistically, hlaw should not be an album he should have had a problem with since it did have pure country in it. it all boils down imo to the fact that he wanted more involvement with linda in whatever way and to be her discoverer but that history did not happen. he probably personalized it and felt rejected in his own way. eddiejinnj

It's possible Hoyt may have wanted to have a professional involvement with Linda, sort of like Dolly Parton and Poter Wagoner. That might have been possible at an earlier time, when Linda's solo career wasn't exactly setting the world on fire but by the time Hoyt and Linda recorded "When the Morning Comes," Linda's solo career was taking off through her own hard work. Hoyt likely did himself no favors by berating and belittling Linda on HLAW if he wanted to guide her career. Linda had already made her choice by going with Peter Asher as far as someone who would guide her career, and Asher was the right choice. Linda did show Axton some professional loyalty by doing some appearances with him to promote "When the Morning Comes" and "Lion in Winter," but the damage may have been done and she have wanted nothing to do with him after that episode.

Watching "Lion in Winter" duet with Axton & Linda, 3 things jump at every time. Axton is embarrasingly smitten with Linda, he talks down to her, Linda is bemused and rises to the occassion. 

[PoP80]

Linda isn't even credited on "When Morning Comes" so Hoyt was probably in control of that also. It was a big hit and she contributed a great deal to the sound of that recording. 

[Deleted]

Apr 29, 2022 11:48:11 GMT -5 PoP80 said:

Linda isn't even credited on "When Morning Comes" so Hoyt was probably in control of that also. It was a big hit and she contributed a great deal to the sound of that recording. 

She is on "Life Machine" album of his. Allan McDougall is first named producer, then Axton.

Linda is also credited for both LIW & WTMC on the compilation "Road Songs" Axton album.

 

[RobGNYC]

If you mean when Hoyt says that "Lion in Winter" has only three chords, I don't think that he was "talking down" to Linda. More that he was nervous, perhaps smitten, forgetting the title of his own song, but not disrespecting her as a musician. 

[Deleted]

Apr 29, 2022 12:09:37 GMT -5 RobGNYC said:

If you mean when Hoyt says that "Lion in Winter" has only three chords, I don't think that he was "talking down" to Linda. More that he was nervous, perhaps smitten, forgetting the title of his own song, but not disrespecting her as a musician. 

OK. It just seemed the way he said it, like Linda would not have known. 

[eddiejinnj]

Linda gets even more nervous and she tries to save the moment and she really does and just goes with the flow. Good recover. eddiejinnj

[Deleted]

Hoyt was a bear of a man, and Linda is petite. I think she joined him to sing LIW after performing YNG, quite a mood change.