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Post by simpledream on Jan 16, 2018 5:14:05 GMT -5
Thought you might be interested in the following piece published in the Village Voice www.villagevoice.com/2017/11/02/cool-story-bro-2/ regarding the famous photo shoot where Wenner apparently 'commanded' (word published in the book) Annie L to make Linda Ronstadt look like a “Tijuana whore.” Apparently Wenner is really pissed about the book ... karma.
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Post by erik on Jan 16, 2018 10:07:59 GMT -5
I saw this too.
I have to wonder if Wenner is ever going to deny that part about telling Annie Leibowitz to make Linda look like a Tijuana whore. He seemed to have a lot against Linda, even though she was often featured in Rolling Stone for a good portion of her career. I have the feeling that, once he moved his operations from San Francisco to New York, the attitudes of his and his staple of reviewers towards Linda became very hostile. and the articles about her became less like stories and more like hit pieces, at least up to the Las Vegas incident in 2004.
Then there's the issue of his control over the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, who gets in and who stays out. I think we all feel that Linda, who became eligible in 1994, should have been inducted no later than 1998, at the same time as the Eagles. But at no time during the ensuing twenty years from the moment she became eligible did Wenner or his Boys even consider her for just the shortlist; and even when they finally did induct her, in 2014, it was a case of too little, too late because of her Parkinson's condition, and the fact that she probably wouldn't have shown up anyway even if she were well and still able to sing.
Wenner really burned his bridges, and it's very hard to feel sorry for him, to be brutally honest.
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Post by Probably Personal on Jan 16, 2018 12:53:57 GMT -5
Based on the extremely venomous nature of Wenner's attitude towards Linda, I would think it was more personal than professional. Perhaps he tried to hit on her and she shot him down (not improbable, particularly given the recent spate of cases of inappropriate behavior by men in power showing how much this behavior actually happens). Remember Linda's experience with the Johnny Cash producer?
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Post by the Scribe on Jan 16, 2018 13:52:44 GMT -5
Ironically Wenner himself turned out to be the Tijuana whore.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jan 16, 2018 15:01:43 GMT -5
Why do you say that, buddy? Is there a factually basis to it? Do tell, lol!!! Inquiring minds....... PP Guest mentioned problems with the Johnny Cash producer (am assuming that means his show's producer). I don't recall at the moment what they were if I knew. eddiejinfl
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Post by the Scribe on Jan 16, 2018 15:38:14 GMT -5
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Post by Probably Personal on Jan 16, 2018 15:45:22 GMT -5
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jan 16, 2018 18:49:54 GMT -5
I should know that PPG. I never finished Linda's book as I was concerned about keeping my personally signed copy mint. It is a treasure to me. Thanks for thoroughly answering my question, az. eddiejinfl
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Definitely Personal
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Post by Definitely Personal on Jan 17, 2018 1:18:43 GMT -5
Linda actually considered Jann to be a friend, until he turned on her.
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Post by the Scribe on Jan 17, 2018 6:04:55 GMT -5
Linda actually considered Jann to be a friend, until he turned on her.
When and why did Jann turn on Linda?
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Post by erik on Jan 17, 2018 9:52:15 GMT -5
Quote by ronstadtfanaz:
Whatever might have gone on between them on a personal level is, in my opinion, anybody's guess. It may have been that Linda was too much of a feminist for a closet misogynist like Wenner, who likely felt that she owed Rolling Stone her career, which on the face of it is clearly false.
However, I stand by my opinion that Wenner's moving the magazine's base of operations to New York City resulted in far more negative coverage of Linda in its pages, including that atrocious January 1988 review of Canciones De Mi Padre and that hit piece on her in July 1995 done by one Chris Mundy.
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Post by Ronstadt fan on Jun 14, 2020 16:53:08 GMT -5
Ironically Wenner himself turned out to be the Tijuana whore.
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Post by sliderocker on Jun 14, 2020 18:28:54 GMT -5
Quote by ronstadtfanaz: Whatever might have gone on between them on a personal level is, in my opinion, anybody's guess. It may have been that Linda was too much of a feminist for a closet misogynist like Wenner, who likely felt that she owed Rolling Stone her career, which on the face of it is clearly false. However, I stand by my opinion that Wenner's moving the magazine's base of operations to New York City resulted in far more negative coverage of Linda in its pages, including that atrocious January 1988 review of Canciones De Mi Padre and that hit piece on her in July 1995 done by one Chris Mundy. My guess is that when Linda's career finally skyrocketed with Heart Like a Wheel, Wenner may have felt from that moment on, Linda owed him. Maybe it wasn't acted upon at the time and perhaps Wenner never got a chance to corner Linda to proposition her as by that time, Linda also had the ability to have some security around her. However, it sounds like it wasn't all that long if he told Annie Leibowitz to make Linda look like a Tijuana whore. Maybe he resented Linda for the men Linda was dating and he was resentful he wasn't among that select group. I can only imagine if word had gotten out as to what Wenner said to Annie on how to photograph Linda, he might have met his maker. That's the kind of comment I couldn't have imagined Linda's family being happy to have heard - much less Linda. Or many of Linda's male fans. I have to think Wenner would've gotten the s--- beaten out of him for the comment, and he would've been getting off lightly if it didn't kill him. As for moving his operations to New York, it could've had a negative impact on Linda. However, Wenner was always something of a jerk and I think the San Francisco artists, much like the Los Angeles based artists, saw Wenner for what he was. And perhaps he was being shunned? Who knows? Maybe he was hitting on female performers like Grace Slick or demanding a financial tribute from bands in general that he had helped promote in the pages of Rolling Stone? I think he was pretty well washed up in the San Francisco and Los Angeles area. Like all predators, he moved out from where he was known to where he wasn't known to continue hitting on attractive female artists. Course, this is all conjecture and could be totally off the mark, but I actually liked Wenner in the 70s. But, what I've come to learn about him since then is there was nothing to like. He was a jerk!
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Post by Larry today on Jun 15, 2020 21:48:12 GMT -5
Anyone have a critical word to say about Annie Leibowitz? If someone who is supposed to be an artist is directed to compromise their art for any reason, that's not saying much for them as an artist.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jun 16, 2020 7:19:06 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, Larry!!!! eddiejinnj
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ted
A Number and a Name
Posts: 11
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Post by ted on Jun 18, 2020 17:15:11 GMT -5
I saw this too. I have to wonder if Wenner is ever going to deny that part about telling Annie Leibowitz to make Linda look like a Tijuana whore. He seemed to have a lot against Linda, even though she was often featured in Rolling Stone for a good portion of her career. I have the feeling that, once he moved his operations from San Francisco to New York, the attitudes of his and his staple of reviewers towards Linda became very hostile. and the articles about her became less like stories and more like hit pieces, at least up to the Las Vegas incident in 2004. Then there's the issue of his control over the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, who gets in and who stays out. I think we all feel that Linda, who became eligible in 1994, should have been inducted no later than 1998, at the same time as the Eagles. But at no time during the ensuing twenty years from the moment she became eligible did Wenner or his Boys even consider her for just the shortlist; and even when they finally did induct her, in 2014, it was a case of too little, too late because of her Parkinson's condition, and the fact that she probably wouldn't have shown up anyway even if she were well and still able to sing. Wenner really burned his bridges, and it's very hard to feel sorry for him, to be brutally honest. Rock and Rock Hall of fame: It still annoys me no end that Linda was the one performer they seemed to hold against it her she didn't write her music (Hello what did Elvis write?!!) to delay induction to the RRHF. Rumors of the personal antagonism by Wenner and that one RS writer/critic (name escapes me) who bashed Linda when he could have swirled for decades, how they tried to sully her cred. I know one of the Eagles was quoted as saying RRHF was a joke as long as Linda wasn't inducted. Wenner was such a narcissistic weasel from everything I've read/heard about him.
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Post by erik on Jun 18, 2020 18:22:12 GMT -5
Quote by ted:
A lot of times, one gets the feeling that Wenner and his cronies, over the decades, seem to make excuses for not inducting certain artists up as they go. Very few of those in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame have actually written any of their own material; even most of Motown's staple of artists had to rely on writers, even within their own orbit. I don't think that not writing one's own songs should ever be considered a crime, particularly when they are good at just simply using their own unique abilities.
Now Linda has said that she never let rock and roll define her, and it doesn't define her entirely. On the other hand, however, I would argue that Linda did define what rock and roll is, by virtue of the various styles she has done in her time: R&B; C&W; blues; jazz; folk; gospel--all of which gave birth to rock and roll in the early-to-mid 1950s. This is a fact that seemed to have escaped Wenner and his stable of writers (the writer whom you're specifically referring to is Dave Marsh, by the way), who seem to think that rock and roll didn't really start until the mid-1960s with Dylan and the Beatles.
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Post by sliderocker on Jun 18, 2020 19:35:23 GMT -5
Anyone have a critical word to say about Annie Leibowitz? If someone who is supposed to be an artist is directed to compromise their art for any reason, that's not saying much for them as an artist. That's unfair. Annie, I believe, was a staff photographer for Rolling Stone, which made her an employee. Though she would've been absolutely right to have slapped Wenner totally straight to hell for the remark. There's no doubt in my mind Wenner possibly could've influenced other magazines and newspapers not to use her as a photographer or her photos if she had slapped him straight upside his head. He definitely seemed like he was a vindictive man and not above using his magazine to punish the artists who dared not pay him tribute.
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Post by sliderocker on Jun 18, 2020 20:07:18 GMT -5
Wenner really burned his bridges, and it's very hard to feel sorry for him, to be brutally honest.[/quote]Rock and Rock Hall of fame: It still annoys me no end that Linda was the one performer they seemed to hold against it her she didn't write her music (Hello what did Elvis write?!!) to delay induction to the RRHF. Rumors of the personal antagonism by Wenner and that one RS writer/critic (name escapes me) who bashed Linda when he could have swirled for decades, how they tried to sully her cred.[/b]
Writing songs has never been a requirement for being nominated and inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The qualifications for nominations and possible induction into the hall are that (1) 25 years must've passed since an artist's or band's first recording, (2) the artist or band must have made significant contributions to rock and roll, and (3) that the artists or bands in questions must've been an influence on other artists and bands. Nothing about songwriting.
One could argue number 2 above could apply to writing songs but that is how it was worded by the hall itself, and if songwriting was a critical consideration, the majority of Motown artists would've been disqualified from consideration because the vast majority didn't write any songs. As for Elvis, he actually did have a hand in the writing of two songs with his friend Red West. Red stated on Elvis Radio not long before he died that he felt Elvis was capable of writing songs. Ironically, one song Red co-wrote with another songwriter that Elvis recorded in 1973, when Elvis performed the song in concert, he introduced the song by saying he wrote it. That song was If You Talk in Your Sleep, which was a Top 20 funk-rock song for him. Did he write it? Who knows?
But, I digress...
Whatever reasons Wenner had for blocking Linda from admission, she was far from the only artist or band to be blocked. The Moody Blues also dealt with the slings and arrows of having to wait for over 25 years for a nomination. Their nomination and induction came after the death of founding member Ray Thomas. And you had Donna Summer, whose nomination and induction came after she had passed away. The Dave Clark Five had lost one or two members to death by the time they were inducted. And the Wenner-less hall now inducts fewer and fewer artists and bands from the 60s and 70s, though many are deserving. Some of them wrote songs too, so why are they being overlooked?
[/quote]
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jun 19, 2020 13:01:32 GMT -5
Elvis co wrote "Love Me Tender" with Vera Matson (Vera was a pseudonym used by Ken Darby - Vera was his wife). I see the 2 by him and Red (they co-wrote it correct?). It seems Elvis was the composer of a number of songs. I am not saying this definitely but most or all of the Elton John/Bernie Taupin songs Elton didn't write the words but the music. Bernie was the word man lol!!! Composing music is certainly a wonderful art and talent. I am going to do some more research re: Elvis' song writing. Hope all is well, slide!!! eddiejinnj
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jun 19, 2020 14:14:29 GMT -5
One could possibly say that despite what Wenner said she MIGHT have done what she did or something similar. Basically, maybe she didn't really have to quote compromise her art as much as some would think. I am saying this not knowing if Annie has ever discussed the incident in detail and gave such insights. Just a food for thought thing!!!! eddiejinnj
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Post by Larry today on Jun 19, 2020 21:28:30 GMT -5
Anyone have a critical word to say about Annie Leibowitz? If someone who is supposed to be an artist is directed to compromise their art for any reason, that's not saying much for them as an artist. That's unfair. Annie, I believe, was a staff photographer for Rolling Stone, which made her an employee. Though she would've been absolutely right to have slapped Wenner totally straight to hell for the remark. There's no doubt in my mind Wenner possibly could've influenced other magazines and newspapers not to use her as a photographer or her photos if she had slapped him straight upside his head. He definitely seemed like he was a vindictive man and not above using his magazine to punish the artists who dared not pay him tribute. Sliderocker, being an employee is no excuse for underhanded behavior. Forget the arts, if you are in the business world and your boss tells you to do something you don't agree with, you have the option to take the high road. I am no fan of Jann Wenner, but if Annie did something shady to further her career, she's no one to defend.
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Post by Linda Fan 5 on Jun 20, 2020 5:48:39 GMT -5
I have always thought there is little more to the story of Ronstadt being “tricked” by Annie Liebowitz. Linda was a flirty and playful subject at many photo sessions before and after that infamous one. Linda is super intelligent and knew what she was wearing and doing while the camera clicked. The Jann Wenner instructions were apalling and racist and wrong but the photo shoot was iconic, and yes, revealing. it is my belief that Linda decided during the photo shoot to “go with the flow” then was rightly apalled that she was not allowed to veto the one shot in particular and we know which one that is. Peter Asher was likewise displeased, but remember that Linda worked with Annie Liebowitz several times after that. I think Linda’s accurate when she said she wasn’t happy at the time but clearly she did not hold a grudge.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jun 20, 2020 7:43:56 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, Larry today!!!!!!! It seems to me based on what some others have pointed out that one could say there were a number of issues/dynamics going on here. I would have to do some research to see what all 3 have said over the years etc or have the 3 of them interviewed to really find out. Like Linda Fan said, Linda did work with her after that. Hey and one never knows if some of the controversy was contrived. The saying goes: "Sex SELLS"!!!! eddiejinnj
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Post by sliderocker on Jun 20, 2020 11:15:31 GMT -5
Elvis co wrote "Love Me Tender" with Vera Matson (Vera was a pseudonym used by Ken Darby - Vera was his wife). I see the 2 by him and Red (they co-wrote it correct?). It seems Elvis was the composer of a number of songs. I am not saying this definitely but most or all of the Elton John/Bernie Taupin songs Elton didn't write the words but the music. Bernie was the word man lol!!! Composing music is certainly a wonderful art and talent. I am going to do some more research re: Elvis' song writing. Hope all is well, slide!!! eddiejinnj I'm doing fairly well, but have been in a medical shoe since December trying to heal an ulcer on my big left toe. Being diabetic and older than the first time it happened, it's been a long and slow process with wound care visits. I've managed to run up a staggering medical bill, which my insurance has mostly paid. Re: Elvis' songwriting credits: Elvis and Vera Matson are the credited songwriters for the four songs from Love Me Tender. Darby stated he was the one who actually wrote the songs but the songs were credited to Elvis and Vera at the suggestion of Colonel Parker. The reason given was Elvis had only one publishing company at the time, which was licensed by BMI and Darby as a songwriter to ASCAP. Regardless, none of the four tunes had original melodies. All of the melodies were in the public domain, so the royalties on melodies in the public domain were lower than the royalties for an original melody. I'm sure the melody portion went to Elvis while Vera received the royalties for the lyrics, which were original. Elvis wasn't happy with the fact Darby and his band recorded the songs for the movie, instead of letting himself, Scotty Moore, Bill Black and D.J. Fontana record the songs. It's surprising Elvis, Scotty, Bill and D.J. didn't record the songs independent of Darby. Elvis was given a third of the songwriting credit on Heartbreak Hotel by Mae Axton Boren (mother of Hoyt, giving Linda an indirect connection to Elvis) and Tommy Durden. Both thought Elvis was a flash in the pan and his careen would be over before it had even begun. Both of them liked Elvis and wanted to help him make a little extra money, so they gave up a third of their songwriting royalties to Elvis. Mae later recalled her's and Tommy's first impression about Elvis being off the mark and if only they had known. They had no regrets though as both had played a pivotal part of Elvis' life. Mae and her son Hoyt would be one of only two parent-and-child songwriters whose songs were recorded or performed. Elvis added Hoyt's song, Never Been to Spain to his 1972 concert setlist. The other parent-and-child songwriters were Artie Glenn and his son Darrell. Artie wrote Crying in the Chapel, while Darrell wrote Indescribably Blue, which barely made it into the Top 40. And yet was reported as having sold more than two million copies. Elvis and Red did write two songs together, one of the songs also listing Charlie Hodge as having written the song. Elvis played one of the songs for Priscilla, which she didn't like because it was a ballad. It was said Priscilla's comment so dejected Elvis that he never tried to write another song again. The song Priscilla disliked was the song Elvis and Red wrote about Elvis' mother, That's Someone You Don't Forget. One can see why it would've been a personal blow to Elvis. Cassandra Peterson, better later known as cult personality Elvira, recalled meeting Elvis in Las Vegas when she was working there. She said Elvis played her some songs on piano that he had actually written. She described them as being more of a classical nature than any other genre, but there were no lyrics for the songs. It would've been interesting to have heard those songs, but I suspect Elvis didn't have them copyrighted and published through his music publishing company. Parker liked taking as much as he could from the songwriters and he probably would've took all of the songwriting royalties. Elvis writing his own songs would've been right up Parker's alley: taking all of the publishing and as much of the songwriting as he could get (even if it was from Elvis), leaving Elvis with very little, if anything. Parker was a managerial vampire.
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Post by sliderocker on Jun 20, 2020 11:31:40 GMT -5
That's unfair. Annie, I believe, was a staff photographer for Rolling Stone, which made her an employee. Though she would've been absolutely right to have slapped Wenner totally straight to hell for the remark. There's no doubt in my mind Wenner possibly could've influenced other magazines and newspapers not to use her as a photographer or her photos if she had slapped him straight upside his head. He definitely seemed like he was a vindictive man and not above using his magazine to punish the artists who dared not pay him tribute. Sliderocker, being an employee is no excuse for underhanded behavior. Forget the arts, if you are in the business world and your boss tells you to do something you don't agree with, you have the option to take the high road. I am no fan of Jann Wenner, but if Annie did something shady to further her career, she's no one to defend. I agree with you, Larry, but I think the point here is that you can't use the moral standards of 2020 to what the moral standards of the 70s were. It's not fair to judge Annie by today's standards when you don't know what her working conditions were like in the 70s. Linda posed for the photos and as Linda Fan 5 rightly points out, Linda did tend to be flirty and playful during her photo sessions. There's one comment by Linda Fan 5 where I disagree with their assertion Linda didn't have veto power. She had veto power before the photos were taken. And Linda had the right to say no to a photo shoot idea she didn't agree with. If she didn't want to do it, she could've just no. Linda played along and had no objection. Even if she didn't know what was up, she knew the photos being taken were for Rolling Stone. And as such, she would've known the photos taken could've been used by Rolling Stone. Regardless, the photos didn't trash Linda the way Wenner hoped they would. Linda's popularity may have increased because of the photos. Wenner may have thought he was a power broker but his importance in rock has always been overstated.
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Post by PoP80 on Jun 20, 2020 11:39:48 GMT -5
That was Annie's version of the story. In any case, the photos of Linda are not that provocative compared to some of the other photographs she has taken. Linda is very aware of her sexuality and is nobody's fool.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jun 20, 2020 14:14:06 GMT -5
Thanks slide and pop. Excellent commentary and analysis by all. I appreciate it. I agree that the photos if anything were positive for Linda!!!! Pop, I do recall now reading that paragraph that Annie said. Again, Linda was influential to another artist as she caused Annie to look at women differently in her art. Wishing you a speedy recovery, slide. eddiejinnj
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Post by erik on Jun 21, 2020 12:11:08 GMT -5
Quote by PoP80:
Quote by eddiejinnj:
Very true. Now it does have to be said that Linda has over the decades shown a fair amount of ambivalence about that cover photo, and one can't blame her really. However, she has shown herself to be very cagey and savvy about the way the entertainment business works. In the end, the photos didn't really overemphasize the sexiness angle in the kiddie-porn way that Madonna and Britney would willingly do in the decades to come. And the interview that she gave to Cameron Crowe for that same Rolling Stone issue was very illuminating and articulate, something that Crowe himself readily acknowledged in THE SOUND OF MY VOICE.
Maybe Wenner's problems with Linda went beyond her being a feminist or being hugely successful at her life's work. Maybe it went to the fact that she shattered the idea that misogynists like Wenner had about women like her, that she was giggly, flighty, and airheaded, and Wenner couldn't stand that.
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Post by eddiejinnj on Jun 21, 2020 15:22:15 GMT -5
Her father had warned her not to let them take your clothes off to paraphrase (I thought of this, maybe, because of Father's Day. I miss my Dad terribly. This is the second FD without him in living form. Of course, he lives on in my heart). So some of the ambivalence might be from that though she didn't take her clothes off. Just trying to look at this from all angles. She had refused $1 million from Larry Flint to pose nude in Hustler (imo, a wise decision). eddiejinnj
Again, Happy Father's Day to all the Dads out there!!!!!
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