|
|
Post by jhar26 on Sept 27, 2015 3:31:31 GMT -5
Nothing that we didn't already know. Still, it can't hurt to remind ourselves that we're being cheated left, right and centre.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dianna on Sept 27, 2015 12:39:48 GMT -5
yet people still pay bucks to see these "artists" live. But....unlike Millie Vanilli it is their actual voices on the recordings, granted tweaked, but their own. I think moreso with the dancers, like Brittney and Madonna... I can't imagine dancing around the stage like a maniac and keeping in tune at the same time
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Sept 27, 2015 13:00:50 GMT -5
Quote by Dianna:
And this is one of the reasons Linda herself never did it--that, and the fact that she was always very self-conscious and shy. As dancing, it looks kind of ridiculous; and as singing, it's just the kind of thing that American Idol and The Voice encouraged too much of (IMHO).
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Sept 27, 2015 13:23:13 GMT -5
yet people still pay bucks to see these "artists" live. But....unlike Millie Vanilli it is their actual voices on the recordings, granted tweaked, but their own. I think moreso with the dancers, like Brittney and Madonna... I can't imagine dancing around the stage like a maniac and keeping in tune at the same time One can sing and move around or dance on stage but it's less a matter of keeping in tune (although that is a possibility) than being out of breath and working up a sweat. Check out the sections of the concert footage in "Elvis: That's the Way It Is." Elvis was sweaty and out of breath after certain songs because of moving around and karate sequences or what have you. He also wore those jumpsuits which with the rhinestones, added another 150 pounds. He was in his prime and it's amazing his concert workout didn't kill him. Maybe they did! Later on, when his movements and dancing around were much less because of his health and weight issues, he was still wearing those heavy jumpsuits. There is a video on the jumpsuits, which tied in with the impersonators and which mentioned how heavy Elvis's jumpsuits were. The heaviest was around 200 pounds. I can't imagine how much stress that added to his body and yet he seemed to wear them, move around or dance (when he did) and sing without any problems. I imagine Elvis wouldn't have had a problem with Madonna or Brittney but I also rather imagine he would've read them the riot act for lip syncing and in essence, cheating their fans. Because Elvis died on Madonna's birthday, she felt she got some of his spirit when he passed. Pity she didn't his love of singing for the fans, because they mattered to him and he loved his fans. |
|
|
|
Post by erik on Sept 27, 2015 13:39:16 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
Yes, Elvis gave everything he had, and, I think in the minds of many, much, much more, because he knew what his fans really wanted, this not only in contrast to Madonna, but, in a bitterly ironic twist, to his own manager, who always went by the premise "leave them hungering for more."
|
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Sept 27, 2015 13:46:06 GMT -5
Quote by Dianna: And this is one of the reasons Linda herself never did it--that, and the fact that she was always very self-conscious and shy. As dancing, it looks kind of ridiculous; and as singing, it's just the kind of thing that American Idol and The Voice encouraged too much of (IMHO). Some artists feel they've got to give the fans a show when they come to see them. Elvis always said as much, that when the fans came to see him, if he just stood on the stage and did nothing beyond singing and playing guitar, many would probably feel they could just stay at home and listen to the records. John Lennon, on the other hand, wasn't a fan of dancing on stage, saying it was hard to sing and play guitar. Every artist was different. Linda was self-conscious and shy, and wouldn't have felt comfortable dancing, but she probably would've been okay with it if she hadn't been shy and had danced on stage. Still, for a female singer, it's not without risk. Agnetha Faltskog from ABBA got all upset over a concert review in which the reviewer praised the concert, but then talked about her and Frida Lyngstad dancing and said Agnetha had the best looking butt he'd ever seen when dancing. She was shy off stage and the review embarrassed her, although I don't think it put a stop to the girls' dancing. There never was another review I'm aware of that focused on them in such a personal way. Had Linda danced, I rather imagine she might have had some reviews like that as well and would've felt as equally uncomfortable. But, it's a choice and with some artists, it doesn't take away from their music. But, dancing has little to do with lip syncing, which Madonna was accused of doing in the 80s. The excuse was she was dancing and putting out so much energy into that, that she couldn't sing. But, really, given the money people were paying to hear her sing, I'd rather she had stood still and sung her heart out than danced. If she couldn't dance and sing at the same time, she should've dropped the dancing. Her music is what made her, whether one is or isn't a fan. |
|
|
|
Post by Goldie on Sept 27, 2015 14:42:15 GMT -5
Linda did get a review or two like that when she wiggled her butt onstage but I think it was because she was in prison and the reviewers had wanted to comment on the audience reaction. I suppose it was a bit obvious.
I remember Madonna being the first I remember being criticized for lip syncing but wasn't Cher the first big star to have a huge autotune hit? After that seemed like everyone was doing it except for a few oldies like Linda, Barbra (who rarely performed anyway), Olivia, etc. Loved it when the self-proclaimed Queen of Rock (EJ)called out Madonna. I mean these people are raking in millions basically just for acting.
How would a great singer like Linda, Barbra or Eva Cassidy sound on autotune? I often wondered about that. And don't most Country stars rely on it now? I wonder how good I would sound with my pitiful singing voice on autotune? mmmm I am thinking of the millions I could make.
|
|
|
|
Post by jhar26 on Sept 27, 2015 14:56:44 GMT -5
Quote by Dianna: And this is one of the reasons Linda herself never did it--that, and the fact that she was always very self-conscious and shy. As dancing, it looks kind of ridiculous; and as singing, it's just the kind of thing that American Idol and The Voice encouraged too much of (IMHO). Apples and oranges. Linda's type of music is not of the type to dance to like a maniac where as the music of the likes of Britney and Madonna is so fit for dancing that many actually refer to the genre as dance.  Just because Linda didn't dance doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with dancing. Michael Jackson danced AND sang live up to the early 90's. James Brown danced like a maniac. How about musicals where there is lots of dancing? There's nothing wrong with it as long as you can do it without cheating your audience out of a genuine live performance. |
|
|
|
Post by Goldie on Sept 27, 2015 15:17:09 GMT -5
LOL. Yes, Desperado and Love Has No Pride don't lend themselves to dance numbers although it would be fun to see what could be done with them.
|
|
|
|
Post by jhar26 on Sept 27, 2015 15:52:01 GMT -5
yet people still pay bucks to see these "artists" live. But....unlike Millie Vanilli it is their actual voices on the recordings, granted tweaked, but their own. I think moreso with the dancers, like Brittney and Madonna... I can't imagine dancing around the stage like a maniac and keeping in tune at the same timeWell, don't do it then. They all have dancers with them. Let them do the dancing and concentrate on the singing yourself. You can do a bit of dancing yourself when there's an instrumental break or something. But I think that dancing is the least of problems when it comes to a girl like Britney. The girl simply can't sing - period. And the same is true of many current pop-ettes imo. I once saw an interview with Sheryl Crow in which she said that she started out in her career singing vocals on records for pop singers who couldn't really sing. She said that we would be surprised if she mentionned any names because there are many famous names amongst them. "I've had some of the biggest pop hits of the late 80's and early 90's. Problem is that nobody knows it was me."  And Sheryl can't be the only one who sings instead of the pretty cutie we see in the video or the album cover. If Aretha Franklin was starting out today record companies would probably say, "Sorry, you're too fat and no teenager is going to perv over you when he would see your video. But you can sing. We have this 18 year old cutie here with big boobs and a nice butt, but she can't sing shit. So we will pay you some nice money if you will sing on the records of this cutie and we will market her as the new Whitney Houston."  |
|
|
|
Post by Dianna on Sept 27, 2015 18:20:55 GMT -5
And the same is true of many current pop-ettes imo. I once saw an interview with Sheryl Crow in which she said that she started out in her career singing vocals on records for pop singers who couldn't really sing. She said that we would be surprised if she mentionned any names because there are many famous names amongst them. "I've had some of the biggest pop hits of the late 80's and early 90's. Problem is that nobody knows it was me." And Sheryl can't be the only one who sings instead of the pretty cutie we see in the video or the album cover. For today, these are some of the female performers who come to mind.. Selena Gomez, Keisha, Rihanna, Lana Del Rey (I like her songs tho) For the men.. Kanye West and Chris Brown for sure or anyone else who uses a lot of autotune. Kanye West has the worst singing voice .. or voice period. |
|
|
|
Post by Goldie on Sept 27, 2015 18:29:26 GMT -5
I wonder who Sheryl is talking about? No offence but she isn't the greatest singer either although I do like her style. I think the dancer singers are what Linda classifies as entertainers and not really singers even though they have records out.
|
|
|
|
Post by moe on Sept 27, 2015 19:14:06 GMT -5
Loved Sir Elton' s comments!
|
|
|
|
Post by jhar26 on Sept 27, 2015 22:02:20 GMT -5
I wonder who Sheryl is talking about? No offence but she isn't the greatest singer either although I do like her style. I think the dancer singers are what Linda classifies as entertainers and not really singers even though they have records out. Compared to the type of people Sheryl is talking about Sheryl is Renée Fleming. Plus she's an excellent imitator of other people's singing voice if her imitation of the young Michael Jackson is anything to go by. And that would of course be essential for the job. |
|
|
|
Post by philly on Sept 27, 2015 23:35:46 GMT -5
I think when Britney's agent said she doesn't lip synch, that's true in the respect that she is making noises with her mouth into the mike as she prances about., so they can say she really is singing. Awhile ago there was an isolated audio of her voice during a performance of her recent show in Vegas posted on youtube. Of course there are many other recordings of her voice in live performances. I imagine it's just fed into the audio mix where it's drowned out by the recorded song. Or maybe they just turn her mike off. Some disgruntled engineer released Mariah Carey's unenhanced audio from her set at Rockefeller Center a couple Christmases ago. Maybe Ashlee Simpson's SNL fiasco wasn't such a big deal after all. About Elvis, I heard towards the end of his career he had others hit the high notes for him in concerts. But the people were happy with the result, and I imagine Elvis gave a better performance than if he had to go out there without such a crutch. A lot of people are happy with the spectacle, so where do you draw the line between artistry and artifice nowadays? I've always thought someone like Taylor Swift should use auto tune at her concerts. By the way, her latest gimmick on her 1989 tour is bringing out "surprise" guest celebrities, some of whom are legendary performers like Mick Jagger for duets. |
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Sept 28, 2015 7:40:52 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Britney Spears, I enjoy all her albums and consider her the "legend" of her generation. People are quick to criticize Britney for not singing live, Janet Jackson also gets criticized for this, but these two ladies put on one hell of a show and their choreography is outstanding, particularly Janet. I'm not a fan of Madonna and would criticize her for not singing live as her chereography isn't to the standard of Janet or Britney. How can people expect someone to sing live and sound like the studio recording when they are physically dancing around the stage to the level Janet and Britney do?
I do agree that the music industry has gone fake and at 31 I am at that stage where I think "Oh my God, the music these days..." - I've felt this way for quite a few years now, I find that the only music I enjoy these days is from artists I have been a fan of for years who are still releasing music. I became a fan of Linda Ronstadt, Enya, Suzanne Vega, Sarah Brightman, Kate Bush, Carrie Newcomer and the Carpenters (who have all got big back catalogues) because of the music industry being so poor these days. 95% of the music I listen to is by female artists and I think in the last decade the music from female artists has gone down hill so much that I ended up checking-out older female artists, after discovering the artists I mentioned I guess I shouldn't complain about the state of the music industry as I probably wouldn't have become of them.
Taylor Swift, Adele, Amy Winehouse, Duffy, Rihanna, Rita Ora, Paloma Faith, Ellie Goulding...just to name a few, I just cannot see any appeal to them, I don't like any of their voices and I think The X Factor ends up with thousands of girls and women trying to sing like them.
The female artists who do have genuine talent and are blessed with beautiful voices are Ren Harvieu, Lizz Wright, Jennifer Hudson, Diana Panton, Woong San, Halie Loren and LeToya Luckett. These ladies (other than Jennifer Hudson) are virtually unknown to most people but they are the ones in my opinion who put the others to shame.
|
|
|
|
Post by erik on Sept 28, 2015 8:19:01 GMT -5
Quote by Damien:
I agree re. The X Factor, encouraging female contestants trying to sing like the artists you've mentioned, though I guess I would honorably dissent re. Adele (and no one will really ever know how far Amy could have gone had she not died so suddenly).
What has happened with some of our members is that, through others on the forum, we have been able to find unique female artists from across the spectrum. Damien, you mentioned Ren Harvieu, and that's a very good artist right there. Robert and I, though another member, got into Tift Merritt back in 2002. I got into Caitlin Rose (daughter of T-Swift ghost writer Liz Rose) five years ago; and the more recent find for me (though she's technically been recording as long as Tift has) has been Lindi Ortega (her album Faded Gloryville is truly a gem of an album, in my humble opinion).
I think the point I'm making here is that you're more likely to find artists worth listening to by doing your own searches or watching out for what others here are into, and vice versa. You won't get this from what passes for a "music industry" these days.
|
|
|
|
Post by jhar26 on Sept 28, 2015 9:45:53 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Britney Spears, I enjoy all her albums and consider her the "legend" of her generation. People are quick to criticize Britney for not singing live, Janet Jackson also gets criticized for this, but these two ladies put on one hell of a show and their choreography is outstanding, particularly Janet. I'm not a fan of Madonna and would criticize her for not singing live as her chereography isn't to the standard of Janet or Britney. How can people expect someone to sing live and sound like the studio recording when they are physically dancing around the stage to the level Janet and Britney do? I saw a dvd of a Janet Jackson show. The one from Hawaii that you are perhaps familiar with. I can't deny that I enjoyed it. I liked many of the tunes, the outfits, the dancing was spectacular and Janet has lots of charisma. Only thing is, 95% of it was lyp-sinching. I can't call a show a concert if it's not. Her so-called concerts (and Britney's) are playback shows and should be reffered to as such. Or they should call them 'visual presentations' if playback show sounds to harsh. Not being mean, but that's what they are. At least Britney admits on her concert tickets that it will be a playback show. But to end on a more positive note, I'm happy for her that she got (as far as we know) her life back on track while she seemed to be going downhill fast for awhile. I like Duffy, Amy Whinehouse and Adele. I don't like, but can tolerate a tune here and there from Rihanna. I dislike Taylor Swift (not the girl but the music) and I don't know the others. But that's because I never listen to the radio or watch the type of shows where they might make an appearence. The only current big league top 40 queen of pop contestant I like (up to a point) is Beyonce. I never watch any X-factor or American Idol type of shows either. |
|
|
|
Post by Dianna on Sept 29, 2015 13:26:28 GMT -5
I wonder who Sheryl is talking about? No offence but she isn't the greatest singer either although I do like her style. I think the dancer singers are what Linda classifies as entertainers and not really singers even though they have records out. My guess is Paula Abdul is for sure on Sheryl's list. |
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Sept 29, 2015 23:00:34 GMT -5
About Elvis, I heard towards the end of his career he had others hit the high notes for him in concerts. But the people were happy with the result, and I imagine Elvis gave a better performance than if he had to go out there without such a crutch. A lot of people are happy with the spectacle, so where do you draw the line between artistry and artifice nowadays? I've always thought someone like Taylor Swift should use auto tune at her concerts. By the way, her latest gimmick on her 1989 tour is bringing out "surprise" guest celebrities, some of whom are legendary performers like Mick Jagger for duets. Regarding others hitting the high notes for Elvis, not really, although one of the backing vocalists in the Stamps claimed to have been the falsetto voice heard on "Little Darlin." It sounded like Elvis to me but Elvis's singing voice was not one that could be easily copied, and especially not by any of the male backing vocalists he had with him on stage. The claim by that backing vocalist has been disputed by Elvis's associates who were with him on his last tour. Elvis was in extremely bad health during that last tour, which included the last tv special that was filmed, but for whatever reason it didn't affect his singing voice. He hit some high notes on his last tv special on the songs "Hurt" and "How Great Thou Art." It was said that on "Hurt," he hit 2.5 octaves on the word "hurt" at the song's end. That was incredible for someone who was in as bad of a shape as he was. Elvis wasn't happy having to do another tv special, knowing how bad he looked. He reportedly said to his stepbrother at the first filmed concert, "I may not look good tonight but I'll look good in my coffin!" But, no one did any pitch hitting (no pun intended) for Elvis during that last tour. |
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Oct 4, 2015 15:14:01 GMT -5
jhar26 - I see your point over the lip-syncing - I just think that less criticism should be given to artists like Janet Jackson and Britney Spears because of their standard of choreography. I own all these two ladies' DVD's and they do lip-sync a lot but I get can passed that by the show they put on as a whole. When it's a ballad where they're just sitting down they do sing live, but when artists are not singing live and they are basically just standing at a mic then I get annoyed.
Two artists who have come from The X Factor who have really, really good voices are Sam Bailey (UK) and Dami Im (Australia) - I enjoy both these ladies albums very much. It's nice to see them being know for their voices rather than stripping off like Miley Cyrus or Katy Perry.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dianna on Oct 4, 2015 15:27:37 GMT -5
Just because Linda didn't dance doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with dancing. Michael Jackson danced AND sang live up to the early 90's. James Brown danced like a maniac. How about musicals where there is lots of dancing? There's nothing wrong with it as long as you can do it without cheating your audience out of a genuine live performance. yes, not to mention I don't think Linda could dance like that even if she wanted to...if you don't believe me check out her "get closer," video. she may be blessed with the most beautiful voices on this planet. but she does not have the moves. People like Madonna and Micheal Jackson (especially M.J.) are either trained or it's something natural they were born with) During Linda's Canciones tour she was smart to hire some really good professional dancers while she did the singing. |
|
|
|
Post by sliderocker on Oct 4, 2015 19:06:56 GMT -5
Just because Linda didn't dance doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with dancing. Michael Jackson danced AND sang live up to the early 90's. James Brown danced like a maniac. How about musicals where there is lots of dancing? There's nothing wrong with it as long as you can do it without cheating your audience out of a genuine live performance. yes, not to mention I don't think Linda could dance like that even if she wanted to...if you don't believe me check out her "get closer," video. she may be blessed with the most beautiful voices on this planet. but she does not have the moves. People like Madonna and Micheal Jackson (especially M.J.) are either trained or it's something natural they were born with) During Linda's Canciones tour she was smart to hire some really good professional dancers while she did the singing. I don't believe it was a case of Linda not wanting to dance, as much as it may have been a case of her shyness and maybe being self-conscious about how she'd look dancing. In some of the early videos, one could see Linda moving her hips up and down when she was into a song. But, it didn't happen on every song and I think that as Linda got older, she maybe became more self conscious about it. When we're young, we don't care how we look to others but I think we get more inhibited as we get older, especially if we didn't dance well in the first place. |
|
|
|
Post by Goldie on Oct 4, 2015 23:50:00 GMT -5
Back in Linda's day it would have been hard to dance and sing holding a microphone. Most musical artists didn't do that or they let their pip like back up singers do those moves. It seems to be more of an 80s and on thing as far as I can tell. Seems to me it would be hard to coordinate truly singing and dancing at the same time without it being pre-recorded.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Oct 5, 2015 6:52:08 GMT -5
Let's not forget that Kate Bush was the first artist to use the head-mic while performing, the guy who designed it got a coat hanger and bent it 'round to shape it and it eventually became a common thing for artists. I think Madonna is often thought of as the one who started this idea, it wasn't.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 8:13:59 GMT -5
I remember Linda saying something about a wireless microphone never sounding as good (or something to that effect)....
|
|
|
|
Post by jhar26 on Oct 5, 2015 8:50:49 GMT -5
Back in Linda's day it would have been hard to dance and sing holding a microphone. Most musical artists didn't do that or they let their pip like back up singers do those moves. It seems to be more of an 80s and on thing as far as I can tell. Seems to me it would be hard to coordinate truly singing and dancing at the same time without it being pre-recorded. Damien is right in that Kate Bush was the first one, although her dancing was quite different from that of the Madonna's and Britney's of the world. But you are right about the 80's. Once MTV with it's videos became the most important outlet to promote music fans expected to see videos re-enacted on stage when they would go to a concert. At least they did when it came to this type of music. |
|
And Sheryl can't be the only one who sings instead of the pretty cutie we see in the video or the album cover. If Aretha Franklin was starting out today record companies would probably say, "Sorry, you're too fat and no teenager is going to perv over you when he would see your video. But you can sing. We have this 18 year old cutie here with big boobs and a nice butt, but she can't sing shit. So we will pay you some nice money if you will sing on the records of this cutie and we will market her as the new Whitney Houston." 
