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Post by rick on Dec 16, 2014 4:31:38 GMT -5
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Post by erik on Dec 16, 2014 9:50:06 GMT -5
I guess they must know what they're doing (said with some sarcasm).
Truly, I feel that Stevie Ray Vaughan and his band Double Trouble, the Paul Butterfield Blues Band, and Bill Withers are the ones I can side with.
Green Day--well, I was of the age group that got into grunge, but I myself never did. After Nirvana got in last year, this group was something of a predictable critics (read: Rolling Stone) favorite.
Lou Reed--I don't think one can question "Walk On The Wild Side", which was a big hit in 1973. But then, this was also the same guy who, three years later, gave us the immortal Metal Machine Music.
My response to Joan Jett and the Blackhearts is this: On the basis of basically one incredibly overplayed hit, Joan Jett gets in, and women like Stevie Nicks (for her solo work) and Pat Benatar are shut out again?! After the 20-year dismissal of Linda that ended last time around, this is the thing I'll fulminate about the most.
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Post by sliderocker on Dec 17, 2014 22:02:59 GMT -5
I guess they must know what they're doing (said with some sarcasm). Truly, I feel that Stevie Ray Vaughan and his band Double Trouble, the Paul Butterfield Blues Band, and Bill Withers are the ones I can side with. Green Day--well, I was of the age group that got into grunge, but I myself never did. After Nirvana got in last year, this group was something of a predictable critics (read: Rolling Stone) favorite. Lou Reed--I don't think one can question "Walk On The Wild Side", which was a big hit in 1973. But then, this was also the same guy who, three years later, gave us the immortal Metal Machine Music. My response to Joan Jett and the Blackhearts is this: On the basis of basically one incredibly overplayed hit, Joan Jett gets in, and women like Stevie Nicks (for her solo work) and Pat Benatar are shut out again?! After the 20-year dismissal of Linda that ended last time around, this is the thing I'll fulminate about the most. As soon as Green Day made the nominees list, I figured they'd get in because of being a favorite with the critics, especially the RS critics. Same for Stevie Ray Vaughan, although I'm okay with him. The criticism of Joan Jett is on the mark, one basically overplayed hit even though she had a handful of other hits, though it's no fault of hers that oldies radio limits her to "I Love Rock & Roll." Benatar should definitely be in. No offense to Stevie, but I kind of loathe the idea of the hall inducting artists who are in bands inducting them a second time as a solo artist. I see second inductions as something which the hall can use to lock out other artists who are under consideration that they don't like. Stevie's in as part of Fleetwood Mac and her solo contributions, along with Lindsay's and Christine's should've been acknowledged at that time. But, the hall plays by its own most peculiar rules and if they're going to induct a second time artists who are in groups and who are already in the hall, vote Stevie in. And as for second time inductions, how about what has to be the greatest insult of all time in inducting Ringo Starr for his contributions as a sideman (to John, Paul and George) but not as a singer, songwriter and musician in his own right? Personally, I'd like to see Ringo tell the sorry lot of them to bugger off. |
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Post by erik on Dec 18, 2014 9:49:40 GMT -5
I would agree re. Ringo, except that (though arguably this is all semantics) the award he gets is for Musical Excellence, which used to be the "Sideman" category. But yes, he still should have been inducted as an actual performer, because the man had two #1 hits, several Top Tens, and big-selling albums after the Beatles' break-up.
As for Jett--well, she was there last time around to salute Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, so the feeling was that she was a lock (I guess Stevie, being one of "Linda's Girls", wasn't "grungy" enough?). But besides the overplayed "I Love Rock N Roll", she and her Blackhearts, to me, just sound like a plodding hard-rock outfit from the 80s, which they were anyway.
Their choices of Lou Reed and Stevie Ray Vaughan seem to continue the trend of inducting deserving artists after they have either died (as in the case of those two, and Donna Summer) or come down with a career-ending ailment (as happened with Linda). I think Jann Wenner and his merry band of cronies have shown to have a history of being undertakers rather than caretakers of the flame.
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Post by jhar26 on Jan 5, 2015 3:35:41 GMT -5
I would agree re. Ringo, except that (though arguably this is all semantics) the award he gets is for Musical Excellence, which used to be the "Sideman" category. But yes, he still should have been inducted as an actual performer, because the man had two #1 hits, several Top Tens, and big-selling albums after the Beatles' break-up. As for Jett--well, she was there last time around to salute Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, so the feeling was that she was a lock (I guess Stevie, being one of "Linda's Girls", wasn't "grungy" enough?). But besides the overplayed "I Love Rock N Roll", she and her Blackhearts, to me, just sound like a plodding hard-rock outfit from the 80s, which they were anyway. Their choices of Lou Reed and Stevie Ray Vaughan seem to continue the trend of inducting deserving artists after they have either died (as in the case of those two, and Donna Summer) or come down with a career-ending ailment (as happened with Linda). I think Jann Wenner and his merry band of cronies have shown to have a history of being undertakers rather than caretakers of the flame. Green Day I only really know as a name. Joan Jett - decent rock'n'roll, but not HOF material in my book. And historically the Runaways are probably more important than Joan Jett solo. Stevie Ray Vaughan - good choice. Bill Withers - good choice. Paul Butterfield - Not sure. I like him ok, but I'm not convinced that he's HOF material. Lou Reed - Should have been inducted ages ago, but better late than never. Ringo - Nice guy, but this is more about them wanting something Beatles related in the show. Next year they will probably do something around Bobby Keys who played the sax solo on 'Brown Sugar' for the Stones. It's remarkable how each year they find an excuse to include the Beatles, Stones and/or Springsteen in the show. |
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Post by erik on Jan 5, 2015 10:12:41 GMT -5
Quotes by jhar26:
I think they need some touchstone artists that an ADD-affected music-buying public can recognize; and the Beatles, the Stones, and Springsteen aren't exactly names people would have too much trouble recognizing.
You really have to wonder about what those who would defend Jett's induction on the basis of her inspiring other young girls to pick up the guitar and join a rock band are really talking about (name just one of them), since I think the Wilson Sisters did the spadework before anyone knew who Jett was. And again, with Jett, it all boils down to her one overplayed hit (the "All About That Bass" of its day, in my opinion) being given the status it has, when she never had a hit that even approached that either before or after.
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Post by jhar26 on Jan 5, 2015 11:58:54 GMT -5
You really have to wonder about what those who would defend Jett's induction on the basis of her inspiring other young girls to pick up the guitar and join a rock band are really talking about (name just one of them), since I think the Wilson Sisters did the spadework before anyone knew who Jett was. And again, with Jett, it all boils down to her one overplayed hit (the "All About That Bass" of its day, in my opinion) being given the status it has, when she never had a hit that even approached that either before or after. I don't mind her. She has her heart in the right place and she's 'decent.' But 'decent' isn't enough to be a HOF-er imo. How many (or few) hits she's had is not even an issue for me. It's just that imo Joan Jett is nothing special. Not bashing her, she's ok, but there's much better out there that still hasn't been inducted. |
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Post by sliderocker on Jan 5, 2015 21:04:40 GMT -5
I think they need some touchstone artists that an ADD-affected music-buying public can recognize; and the Beatles, the Stones, and Springsteen aren't exactly names people would have too much trouble recognizing.
I'm a lot more cynical than to believe the hall needs touchstone artists that an ADD-affected music-buying public can recognize. The rock music critics in this country have always had a love affair for all things Beatle and all things Springsteen. I'm not sure about the Stones but the critics probably can't fawn enough about them either. That love affair has allowed them to diss other artists or bands they didn't like as not being good enough when in fact they may have been or were. No other musical act must ever be allowed to challenge the musical superiority of their heroes in sales and influence. It's like these critics have elected them as popes and regard them in a religious way. (Disclaimer: I am a Beatles fan, much as I am an Elvis fan and there are songs I like by the Stones and an occasional Springsteen tune. Even so, I have always found it utterly stupid to reject other artists or put them because they're not the Beatles or Elvis or who have you.)
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Post by erik on Jan 5, 2015 22:14:45 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
I think the problem is even bigger than critics anointing certain artists to almost papal status. Some of the critics anoint themselves to papal status (such as Robert Christgau, who calls himself, with the most disgusting pomposity [IMHO], the "dean of American rock critics"), and consider themselves "the keepers of the flame", when it's really the artists themselves and those of us who buy the records and the concert tickets who are the true keepers.
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Post by sliderocker on Jan 5, 2015 22:50:53 GMT -5
I think the problem is even bigger than critics anointing certain artists to almost papal status. Some of the critics anoint themselves to papal status (such as Robert Christgau, who calls himself, with the most disgusting pomposity [IMHO], the "dean of American rock critics"), and consider themselves "the keepers of the flame", when it's really the artists themselves and those of us who buy the records and the concert tickets who are the true keepers. Critics anointing themselves to papal status or "keepers of the flame," I think, began with the first generation rock fans, the ones who were old enough to have experienced the first generation of rockers. Unlike some of those fans, who followed their heroes into the music themselves, rock fans who became critics had no talent for singing, writing songs or playing an instrument but decided they were perfectly qualified to be critics themselves and criticize the next generation of rockers, usually in a negative way. That negative criticism was hurled against their fellow first generation fans who became singers, songwriters and musicians, especially the artists whose records made the (horrors) Top 40 charts. To be successful was to be a sell out yet surely the so called rock music critics were aware the record business was a big time business and if one's records wasn't selling, the record companies weren't likely to keep you around. I'd guess Christgau is considered the "dean of American rock critics" because his reviews are instructive for other critics on how to be mean and nasty to rock artists, all the while kissing up to the rockers' collective a**es because certain critics think they're entitled to be part of the rocker lifestyle too. I haven't read that many Christgau reviews, so I really don't know. But, if he's anything like the self-important a**es of Rolling Stone and other rock critics whose reviews I have read over the years, I'm not interested in a critic telling me I must like this artist or hate that artist because they like or hate them. There are honest reviews out there, with valid criticism that don't need to put down the artist or the music, even though there is some bad music and some terrible artists. |
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Post by erik on Jan 13, 2015 19:41:12 GMT -5
I can think of at least one hugely neglected 1950s-era artist who is not in the RRHOF: ROY HAMILTONSmooth-voiced (near-operatic) R&B legend of the 1950s and early 1960s who had hits with songs like "Ebb Tide", "He", "Unchained Melody" (yes, that exact song), "Hurt", and "You Can Have Her" , among others. Here he is with one of the artists who admired him to the hilt:  Roy was in town in Memphis at American Studios in January 1969 to do some recording at the same time Elvis was; and the two men finally met face-to-face. Elvis had planned to record "Anjelica", a real heartfelt ballad written by Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil, for his American sessions, but instead gave it to Roy to record as a friendly gesture. Here are Elvis and Roy together with Elvis' close friend George Klein, and American Studios owner Chips Moman:  Sadly, only six months later, on July 20, 1969, at the unconscionably early age of 40, Roy Hamilton passed away, having suffered a massive stroke. Elvis himself recorded many of the same songs that Roy had, including "Hurt" (a #28 hit for the King in May 1976), and "Unchained Melody"; and in fact, he had also planned to finally do "Anjelica" as part of a recording session he had lined up following his late summer tour of 1977. Sadly, of course, we know why that never came to pass. |
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Post by sliderocker on Jan 13, 2015 22:38:41 GMT -5
Elvis himself recorded many of the same songs that Roy had, including "Hurt" (a #28 hit for the King in May 1976), and "Unchained Melody"; and in fact, he had also planned to finally do "Anjelica" as part of a recording session he had lined up following his late summer tour of 1977. Sadly, of course, we know why that never came to pass. About Elvis's recording session following his late summer 1977 tour, that session was scheduled for early 1978. The August-September 1977 tour was to have been Elvis's last for the year, Parker allegedly capitulating on not scheduling any further tours or Vegas appearances in order to give Elvis time to rest and tend to his health. I don't exactly buy that idea but some of Elvis's band members said they had been told the tour was going to be Elvis's last for about a year and maybe even longer because he was seriously ill. I hadn't heard of "Angelica" being one of the songs Elvis was scheduled to record, but it wouldn't have surprised me. I know "Rainy Night in Georgia" had already been scheduled to be recorded, as had a fierce rock song from country songwriter Bob Morrison, titled "Energy." And songwriters Paul Evans and Jody Reynolds ("Endless Sleep") had separately come up with four songs that had already been accepted. And pleasing Parker, the total publishing on those songs had been assigned to Elvis's publishing companies. What was odd about that planned recording session and totally different to the way Elvis recorded was that everything was being planned well in advance. Elvis recording sessions in the past rarely ran that way. Elvis usually listened to the demos in the studio and recorded what he liked on the spot. That kind of activity suggested something was up. As for Roy Hamilton, he belongs in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And I can't think of one good reason why he's not in there already. I never did remember hearing his version of "Angelica" in 1969. There was a competing version by singer Oliver ("Good Morning Starshine," "Jean") but I don't remember his version being a big hit either. It didn't sound like a hit at all, in fact. By the time both men recorded the song, it had been around for three years as I believe the first version was by the songwriter himself, Barry Mann. But, it wasn't a hit for him either. Someone said Hamilton did have a hit with the song, but I think if it charted at all, it must've been on the soul chart or the easy listening/middle of the road chart. All things considered, it would've been interesting to have heard Elvis's take on "Angelica," although I thought that was one of Mann's and his wife, Cynthia Weil's lesser songs |
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Post by erik on Jan 13, 2015 23:11:30 GMT -5
Roy's version of "Anjelica", as far as I know, only skirted the lower rungs of the Hot 100 in the spring of 1969. Having heard some of those mid-1950s recordings of Roy's, with songs that would become rock-era standards, it's not too hard to see how Elvis greatly admired his style (and really a lion's share of black R&B artists, countering the thoroughly bogus notion that he "stole" from African Americans). Not to have one of the earliest true R&B power ballad artists in the Hall of Fame is another black blot on the place that needs to be fixed (IMHO).
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Post by sliderocker on Jan 13, 2015 23:53:23 GMT -5
Roy's version of "Anjelica", as far as I know, only skirted the lower rungs of the Hot 100 in the spring of 1969. Having heard some of those mid-1950s recordings of Roy's, with songs that would become rock-era standards, it's not too hard to see how Elvis greatly admired his style (and really a lion's share of black R&B artists, countering the thoroughly bogus notion that he "stole" from African Americans). Not to have one of the earliest true R&B power ballad artists in the Hall of Fame is another black blot on the place that needs to be fixed (IMHO). Roy's version of "Anjelica" (or "Angelica") is not listed on his wikipedia entry for his hit singles. The last "hit" they have credited for him is 1961's "You're Gonna Need Magic," which only managed to make it to number 80. But, just looking at the hits he did have, one can see the huge influence he had on Elvis in the number of songs the two recorded. I'd always thought Elvis's recording of "Pledging My Love" was based on Johnny Ace's original hit version. It may have been but Hamilton also recorded the song and given Elvis was a Hamilton fan, more than likely he was the source for Elvis's version. Hamilton must also have been a huge influence on the Righteous Brothers as they had also recorded the songs "Ebb Tide," "He" and "Unchained Melody," and had had hits on their versions of those songs. His version of "You'll Never Walk Alone" was the inspiration for the version by Gerry Marsden and the Pacemakers. His omission from the R&RHoF really is baffling given the artists he influenced. Of course, it may be that because he's been dead 46 years, he's a forgotten voice, yet the RS-faction of the R&RHoF has always had a fondness for 1950s R&B/doo wop artists, some of whom have been dead for a longer period of time than Hamilton. |
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Post by erik on Jan 14, 2015 9:41:36 GMT -5
Elvis also recorded "You'll Never Walk Alone" in, I believe, 1968, so his version may have been substantially influenced by Roy's version as well. As to the Righteous Brothers' recordings, I too think they were very much influenced by Roy's originals, though the Wall of Sound didn't hurt either.
Roy's purpose for recording at American Studios was to get into the more Memphis style of R&B that had already yielded huge hits for others, including the Box Tops ("The Letter") and Dusty Springfield ("Son Of A Preacher Man"), and which, of course, would pay off big for Elvis. He had even recorded the Chips Moman/Dan Penn classic "The Dark End Of The Street" (which Linda would do in 1974); and one can only speculate endlessly just how big he could have become once again had he not died so soon.
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Post by sliderocker on Jan 16, 2015 22:27:53 GMT -5
Elvis also recorded "You'll Never Walk Alone" in, I believe, 1968, so his version may have been substantially influenced by Roy's version as well. As to the Righteous Brothers' recordings, I too think they were very much influenced by Roy's originals, though the Wall of Sound didn't hurt either. Roy's purpose for recording at American Studios was to get into the more Memphis style of R&B that had already yielded huge hits for others, including the Box Tops ("The Letter") and Dusty Springfield ("Son Of A Preacher Man"), and which, of course, would pay off big for Elvis. He had even recorded the Chips Moman/Dan Penn classic "The Dark End Of The Street" (which Linda would do in 1974); and one can only speculate endlessly just how big he could have become once again had he not died so soon. Elvis's version of "You'll Never Walk Alone" was indeed from 1968 and featured Elvis on piano, the only song he released as a single featuring him playing that instrument. And I think you're right about him being influenced by Roy. Another song of Roy's that Elvis did was one that wasn't even released in his lifetime, "If I Loved You." It was an informal recording, recorded for fun between proper takes of another song. Elvis and the band did not return to the song. I'm kind of surprised Elvis himself didn't record "Dark End of the Street," which would've bootleggers another song to pair Elvis and Linda together on, if it had been in the same key. Of course, that didn't stop bootleggers from releasing recordings of Elvis "dueting" with other artists who recorded the same song, such as pairing Elvis and Buddy Holly together on "(You're So Square) Baby I Don't Care." Holly's version was in a different key as were most of the other artists whose recordings were paired up with Elvis's. Surprisingly, I don't think the bootleggers ever caught on to the many songs Elvis and Roy did. American Studios was having a hot streak in the 60s, no question about that and that was something that might have helped Roy. That Elvis wanted to help Roy get back on the charts to the point that he intentionally passed on a song so that Roy could record it instead is a tale all those who still believe Elvis was a racist should hear. But, the people who believe that garbage still hold onto those beliefs, despite the fact that many of Elvis's black celebrity contemporaries - including B.B. King, Fats Domino, Sammy Davis Jr., Rufus Thomas, Little Richard, the Sweet Inspirations, and Dudley Brooks (who worked on Elvis's movie soundtracks in the 60s as a pianist, songwriter and producer)- have said Elvis was no racist and someone who treated everyone, regardless of skin color or religious belief with respect. I suspect that a lot of the garbage is like some of Elvis's friends have claimed, garbage borne from a jealousy that Elvis was so successful. And I have no doubt that if Roy (and Jackie Wilson too, for that matter) was living today, he probably wouldn't take too kindly to those stories about his friend. |
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Post by erik on Jan 17, 2015 0:02:25 GMT -5
Quote by sliderocker:
Yes, if ever there was a myth that needed to be debunked forever, it was the one that said that Elvis was a racist. The plain truth of the matter is that he always acknowledged the influence of African-American artists from across the spectrum throughout his life; and those aforementioned friendships were living proof of that. The reason it's lasted so long is because of the lingering resentment (even though it may be justified by some, but it certainly wouldn't apply to Elvis) that white artists stole from black artists at the dawn of the rock era (like Pat Boone doing mightily watered down versions of "Ain't That A Shame" and "Tutti Frutti" that boggle the mind); and when it com to Elvis, a lot of those still propagating the myth have been rap and hip-hop artists, most of whom weren't even alive at the time Elvis died in 1977...and most of whom, of course, don't know s**t about their own culture's music and how much this one totally individualistic force of nature acknowledged its influence to the very end of his life.
And yes, I have no doubt that all of those contemporaries of Elvis, including Chuck Berry too, would take extreme exception to these accusations.
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Post by sliderocker on Jan 17, 2015 12:04:44 GMT -5
Yes, if ever there was a myth that needed to be debunked forever, it was the one that said that Elvis was a racist. The plain truth of the matter is that he always acknowledged the influence of African-American artists from across the spectrum throughout his life; and those aforementioned friendships were living proof of that. The reason it's lasted so long is because of the lingering resentment (even though it may be justified by some, but it certainly wouldn't apply to Elvis) that white artists stole from black artists at the dawn of the rock era (like Pat Boone doing mightily watered down versions of "Ain't That A Shame" and "Tutti Frutti" that boggle the mind); and when it cpmes to Elvis, a lot of those still propagating the myth have been rap and hip-hop artists, most of whom weren't even alive at the time Elvis died in 1977...and most of whom, of course, don't know s**t about their own culture's music and how much this one totally individualistic force of nature acknowledged its influence to the very end of his life. And yes, I have no doubt that all of those contemporaries of Elvis, including Chuck Berry too, would take extreme exception to these accusations. Another big myth about the "Elvis stole from black artists" is the myth that the songs in question were written by black songwriters. Most of Elvis's songs were in fact written by white songwriters, although there were songs he did that were written by black songwriters, including some songs that were specifically written for him. Elvis also made sure the songwriters were paid by doing things like paying for his own recording sessions, rather than letting RCA pay for the sessions and charging it back against any the royalties. Record companies not only ripped off the artists in that manner, but they also took the royalties from the songwriters and the producers, if they had a royalty. Black artists and songwriters were frequently the victims of such practices. And that was a practice was a practice that just didn't happen with labels that were run solely by whites. Black run labels employed the practice too. For a long time, Berry Gordy at Motown never paid his artists, songwriters and producers the royalties they were owed. He figured it was better if he managed their money and he gave them money every week to get by on. Maybe his heart was in the right place but that should've been an option for the artists, songwriters and producers. If they wanted to go along with that, fine but if not, he should've given them their money. It should've been their choice. And much of the time, Gordy was not giving them enough money to live on. I heard of some artists and songwriters who said they were only given $50 a week in the 50s, which wasn't a lot, not even by 60s standards. But, he did exempt certain artists from that rule, like Diana Ross. If someone thought Elvis was ripping off black artists, what would they say about people like Gordy or other blacks who ran a record label that did rip off their artists? |
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